well said snood,I couldnt say it better.
I wish it were always true, Snood. But I have family members who -- though no permanent damage was done -- testify to the dehumanization of the process and who lost respect it.
I felt basic training was very dehumanizing - they took the human out so you could be Army. Of course, I went through basic in early 1969 and I understand there was a major change in the system shortly after I left.
Now don't get me wrong about basic. There were certain things it did that were very important. I was being trained to good out and kill people efficiently and effectively at the same time protecting myself. It was warrior training not baby sitter training.
You have to be dehumanized to accept killing other people. I'm sure the effect last till today. Don't start anything with me because I will finish it and I am not responsible for the way I finish it, if you know what I mean!
We used to joke that there ought to be a re-basic training at the end of your hitch. Something to turn your instincts off and turn your brain back on, or your heart back on or maybe both.
Snood, you're right about the asperion casters, what gets me is the posers. The ones who think because they wear a hat that someone would believe they were GI.
I went through basic training in the Air Force during the mid 1950's. My TI was one tough SOB -- and I was only 17 years old at the time. I was scared shitless of him.
I became permanent party at Sampson AFB (the training base) and even after basis training, I had a lot of trouble speaking with him and calling him Smitty -- instead of Sir.
We recently got in touch through the internet. He is now a retired professor -- and I enjoy talking with him via email.
I never felt I was dehumanized -- but then again, this was the Air Force rather than the Army or Marines. But I sure had to grow up in one quick hurry -- and I think that was to my benefit -- big time.
I went through Navy boot camp,maybe that is why I didnt feel dehumanized.But,I also had to go through AIT with the Marines,and there I wasnt treated like anything but a recruit.
Have been in a Navy boot camp myself: there were some 'rougher' companies, and even in mine was a 'famous' rifling, where seamen finally did all the drill sergeants wanted ... .
I was treated like a 'citizen in uniform', according to our laws.
Citizen in uniform I like.
Lots of history resonating there, Walter. It's a very civilized document.
Tartarin, NOTHING is going to be "always true" when trying to train hundreds of thousands of young people to kill, and keep from getting killed. There are going to be extreme examples of EVERYTHING - cruelty AND consideration - but they will be the exceptions. Sorry about your relatives, but do you have a way to train 18 year olds to be soldiers in eight weeks that you're just not sharing?
It is a little more than that snood, don't forget AIT - but the point is well taken. I found that the atrocities came from the most likely sources, had nothing to do with training.
Also, I remember we had our Geneva convention training right after our stent in the gas chamber - wonder if that was on purpose?
I went through my basic training in 1948 having just turned 19. I never felt dehumanized or in fact found it very difficult. The thing that bothered me was the heat. It was at Camp Hood Texas at the height of a very hot summer. Before I am corrected the name was changed to Fort Hood some time later. After Basic spent a year in a recon battalion as a tank driver. I rather enjoyed that time, after all no one was shooting at us. And I certainly did not have to be deprogrammed after my discharge.
au, you get out just before Korea?
Agree -- I should have included the inevitability (as has been pointed out by others) that the training varies from service to service and officer to officer and probably many other factors. However, I am always uneasy about loyalty to an institution. It too often clouds judgment, and in the case of the military and war, that can be a real problem, Snood. I like the notion of debriefing, reverse basic training at the end of service -- was that your idea, Bill?
I think it was snood's idea; but I like it! That was dehumanizing too - "You gotta stand up and take it like a man!"
Bill
Yes and no.
Yes, I got out by going into the reserves however was called back less than 2 months after the Korean police action began. I was lucky however, ending in the headquarters company of the Army outfit involved in building the Thule airbase. People now pay good money for ocean cruises up north I got mine free. Spent another 33 months on active duty.
Still got plenty cold, but I guess your in NY - brrrrrrrr, hate the cold!
Tartarin wrote:Agree -- I should have included the inevitability (as has been pointed out by others) that the training varies from service to service and officer to officer and probably many other factors. However, I am always uneasy about loyalty to an institution. It too often clouds judgment, and in the case of the military and war, that can be a real problem, Snood. I like the notion of debriefing, reverse basic training at the end of service -- was that your idea, Bill?
Does this include all of the professional and fraternal institutions in the world? What about loyalty to your alma mater? What about the loyalty members have to the "thin blue line"?
Yes, MM. All of the above.
