12
   

Iranian war

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 01:50 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
It was not designed to dog fight but to take on enemy fighters from a distance, which is still about "air superiority".

Well, I will acknowledge that there are people out there who consider that to be a form of air superiority.

I, however, do not consider long range ability to be useful for air superiority unless there is also a capability to counter enemy planes at short range.


Olivier5 wrote:
I doubt it will ever be able to do that effectively.

It certainly won't unless it gets far better at long-range detection.

And like I said above, long range capability alone is not really air superiority. Planes need to be able to counter enemies at short ranges too.


Olivier5 wrote:
As for delivering bombs in places that cannot defend themselves from aerial attack, it can do that, but in tiny amounts and over short distances.

The F-35 can deliver bombs in places that can defend themselves from aerial attack.

It has all of the capabilities of the F-117.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 01:54 pm
@oralloy,
I, and many others have pointed out countless things you've been wrong about. You can't accept that, it's like part of your brain is missing or stopped functioning.

I'm not trying to insult you, but that's how you are. You deny black is white all the time. With some people you can argue the facts, but not you because you live in an alternative reality. That's why there's no point arguing with you.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's told you this, you must get it all the time.

You're not only delusional, you're stubborn. There's no damn way you're going to let reality intrude in your world.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 01:59 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
I, and many others have pointed out countless things you've been wrong about.

No you haven't.

You cannot cite a single example where you have ever pointed an error in my posts.

Nor can you cite any examples of numerous or frequent errors on my part.

That said, it was nice to get a civil reply from you.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 02:10 pm
@oralloy,
And this is your standard response every time, gripping to your delusions like grim death.

Talking to you is like talking to a teenager, someone young enough to know everything.

I'm serious, it's like you stopped developing emotionally when you reached 14 and you're stuck there.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 02:13 pm
@oralloy,
You're very rarely civil, and some of things you say are disgusting. It's very hard to be civil with someone who repulses you.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 02:13 pm
@izzythepush,
You failed to cite any of my supposed errors.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 02:15 pm
@izzythepush,
The only time that I've been uncivil in the past was when I was retaliating in kind for name-calling directed at me.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 02:20 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
A land invasion of Iran would be next to impossible, unless one is ready to kill millions of people and suffer tens of thousands casualties.

It wouldn't be as bad as that. But a land invasion will definitely be more trouble than it's worth.


Olivier5 wrote:
If the US does anything there, it'll be limited to air strikes.

Yes.

But that will be good enough for me.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 02:22 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
The Iraq war refutes that argument. That war was expensive and sucked troops from the Afghanistan effort, but we went forward without a second thought.

A land invasion of Iran might be a greater undertaking than a land invasion of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 02:27 pm
@oralloy,
You threw insults at me pretty much the first day I posted here.

I'd never even spoken to you before.

If you want to live in your fantasyland then go ahead, just don't expect anyone else to accept your delusions.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 03:22 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I think that "looking after your patch" can be fairly described as "acting in the role of a police officer".
And the actions of mob bosses.

Quite frankly, you admit to acting like a mob boss, disregarding courts, not recognising any authority over you, killing for the sake of bloodlust....but still claim to be a police officer (this view is quite insane). And like Al Capone, you claim to be the good guy 'I did it for the benefit of Chicago!' (and the similarity here is obvious - while claiming his actions benefited others, his actions benefited him first and foremost)
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 03:41 pm
@vikorr,
I doubt that Al Capone could make much of a case that he was doing good.

I can make a solid case that the US acts in the defense of democracy and civilization.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 03:42 pm
@izzythepush,
What insults?

Do you mean where I called it antisemitism when you accused Israel of imaginary atrocities? If so, that was fair criticism of those horrible accusations.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 03:49 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I doubt that Al Capone could make much of a case that he was doing good.

I can make a solid case that the US acts in the defense of democracy and civilization.
You still haven't looked at that list of countries the U.S. has invaded properly have you.

There are many invasions that cannot be categorised as 'the defense of democracy and civilisation'

In each of course, there was an excuse, but the end result was still the same - the U.S. benefited greatly out of it. You even admit to one similar (occupation, and coup) in Panama. There are others.

You can make all the excuses you like - they don't match the pattern of the U.S. benefiting (and for your benefit, being by far the primary beneficiary) from it's invasions. This is quite clear, so I won't buy lies (read PR / Propaganda) that don't match it.
HabibUrrehman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 03:51 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
US acts in the defense of democracy

US does not have a democracy, how can it defend democracy? A country where a candidates who wins majority vote loses is not democratic country. A country where a candidate who has more money gets more power is not a democratic country. A country where voters select their representative and in turn representative select their voters is not democratic ( I am referring to Gerrymandering). At best America has "flawed" democracy.
Your president's attitude for press is worse than any Kingdom. People like you deserve Trump and Trump deserves voters like you.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 04:06 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
The U.S. does have a democracy.

Quote:
A country where a candidates who wins majority vote loses is not democratic country
This is a quirk of many democracies. There isn't a perfect system of vote counting, once you get into the nuts and bolts of things. If a particularly system causes too many of such problems, then it is usually changed to more fairly reflect voting (until a new problem crops up with the new system). And that is the mark of democracy.

In any event, 'defending democracy' is just the excuse the U.S. uses to justify it's actions to keep it's power & influence. It happily doesn't defend democracy in the dictatorship it props up, or the coups it's run against democratically elected leaders. And the U.S. benefits from such. Through these actions you see the lie. For Oralloys benefit - the words (we're defending democracy etc) don't match the actions.
HabibUrrehman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 04:20 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
In any event, 'defending democracy' is just the excuse the U.S. uses to justify it's actions to keep it's power & influence. It happily doesn't defend democracy in the dictatorship it props up, or the coups it's run against democratically elected leaders. And the U.S. benefits from such. Through these actions you see the lie. For Oralloys benefit - the words (we're defending democracy etc) don't match the actions.


Agree, below is a typical model how US defends democracy in other countries:

1) Place a puppet government , make people believe that they voted for him

2) Make him pass US friendly bills in parliament/government whatever

3) make sure that the government actually does not have more than 40% public support, so that they can blackmail him. And if he tries to resist USA, they can leave him to die in a civil war.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 04:30 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
US acts in the defense of democracy


Below is just a short list of countries US helped to overthrow democratically elected governments around the world under the guise of bringing them democracy.

1941

Panama - Upon refusal by Panama’s government to grant a lease to the US military to build military installations in the country, Arnulfo Arias presidency was cut short by a bloodless coup backed by the US. The new government quickly negotiated the transfer of defense sites to the US and entered the war against Axis, the first Latin American country to do so.

1949

Syria - Syria was the first former colony in the Arab world to achieve independence from the European powers. According to Miles Copeland Jr., a former CIA officer, in his book Game of Nations, the democratically elected minority government under Shukri al-Quwatli was deemed too weak. Fearing a possible rise in communist influence should the government collapse, the CIA supported the military Junta led by Colonel Za’im in overthrowing the government “as a way of safeguarding … the long-term prospects of democracy in the country.” Interestingly, the construction of the Trans-Arabian Oil Pipeline, which was previously held up in the Syrian parliament, was approved within a month by the new military regime.

1953

Iran – CIA overthrows the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in a military coup, after he threatened to nationalize British oil. The CIA replaces him with a dictator, the Shah of Iran, whose secret police, SAVAK, is as brutal as the Gestapo.

1954

Guatemala — CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.

1954-1958

North Vietnam — CIA officer Edward Lansdale spends four years trying to overthrow the communist government of North Vietnam, using all the usual dirty tricks. The CIA also attempts to legitimize a tyrannical puppet regime in South Vietnam, headed by Ngo Dinh Diem. These efforts fail to win the hearts and minds of the South Vietnamese because the Diem government is opposed to true democracy, land reform and poverty reduction measures. The CIA’s continuing failure results in escalating American intervention, culminating in the Vietnam War.

1956

Hungary — Radio Free Europe incites Hungary to revolt by broadcasting Khruschev’s Secret Speech, in which he denounced Stalin. It also hints that American aid will help the Hungarians fight. This aid fails to materialize as Hungarians launch a doomed armed revolt, which only invites a major Soviet invasion. The conflict kills 7,000 Soviets and 30,000 Hungarians.

1957-1973

Laos — The CIA carries out approximately one coup per year trying to nullify Laos’ democratic elections. The problem is the Pathet Lao, a leftist group with enough popular support to be a member of any coalition government. In the late 50s, the CIA even creates an "Armee Clandestine" of Asian mercenaries to attack the Pathet Lao. After the CIA’s army suffers numerous defeats, the U.S. starts bombing, dropping more bombs on Laos than all the U.S. bombs dropped in World War II. A quarter of all Laotians will eventually become refugees, many living in caves.

1959

Haiti — The U.S. military helps "Papa Doc" Duvalier become dictator of Haiti. He creates his own private police force, the "Tonton Macoutes," who terrorize the population with machetes. They will kill over 100,000 during the Duvalier family reign. The U.S. does not protest their dismal human rights record.

1961

The Bay of Pigs — The CIA sends 1,500 Cuban exiles to invade Castro’s Cuba. But "Operation Mongoose" fails, due to poor planning, security and backing. The planners had imagined that the invasion will spark a popular uprising against Castro -– which never happens. A promised American air strike also never occurs. This is the CIA’s first public setback, causing President Kennedy to fire CIA Director Allen Dulles.
Dominican Republic — The CIA assassinates Rafael Trujillo, a murderous dictator Washington has supported since 1930. Trujillo’s business interests have grown so large (about 60 percent of the economy) that they have begun competing with American business interests.
Ecuador — The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign. Vice President Carlos Arosemana replaces him; the CIA fills the now vacant vice presidency with its own man.
Congo (Zaire) — The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba. However, public support for Lumumba’s politics runs so high that the CIA cannot clearly install his opponents in power. Four years of political turmoil follow.

1963

Dominican Republic — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.
Ecuador — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Arosemana, whose independent (not socialist) policies have become unacceptable to Washington. A military junta assumes command, cancels the 1964 elections, and begins abusing human rights.

1964

Brazil — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaces it will, in the next two decades, become one of the most bloodthirsty in history. General Castelo Branco will create Latin America’s first death squads, or bands of secret police who hunt down "communists" for torture, interrogation and murder. Often these "communists" are no more than Branco’s political opponents. Later it is revealed that the CIA trains the death squads.

1965

Indonesia — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Sukarno with a military coup. The CIA has been trying to eliminate Sukarno since 1957, using everything from attempted assassination to sexual intrigue, for nothing more than his declaring neutrality in the Cold War. His successor, General Suharto, will massacre between 500,000 to 1 million civilians accused of being "communist." The CIA supplies the names of countless suspects.

Dominican Republic — A popular rebellion breaks out, promising to reinstall Juan Bosch as the country’s elected leader. The revolution is crushed when U.S. Marines land to uphold the military regime by force. The CIA directs everything behind the scenes.

Greece — With the CIA’s backing, the king removes George Papandreous as prime minister. Papandreous has failed to vigorously support U.S. interests in Greece.

Congo (Zaire) — A CIA-backed military coup installs Mobutu Sese Seko as dictator. The hated and repressive Mobutu exploits his desperately poor country for billions.

1966

The Ramparts Affair — The radical magazine Ramparts begins a series of unprecedented anti-CIA articles. Among their scoops: the CIA has paid the University of Michigan $25 million dollars to hire "professors" to train South Vietnamese students in covert police methods. MIT and other universities have received similar payments. Ramparts also reveals that the National Students’ Association is a CIA front. Students are sometimes recruited through blackmail and bribery, including draft deferments.

1967

Greece — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government two days before the elections. The favorite to win was George Papandreous, the liberal candidate. During the next six years, the "reign of the colonels" — backed by the CIA — will usher in the widespread use of torture and murder against political opponents. When a Greek ambassador objects to President Johnson about U.S. plans for Cypress, Johnson tells him: "**** your parliament and your constitution."
Operation PHEONIX — The CIA helps South Vietnamese agents identify and then murder alleged Viet Cong leaders operating in South Vietnamese villages. According to a 1971 congressional report, this operation killed about 20,000 "Viet Cong."

1968

Operation CHAOS — The CIA has been illegally spying on American citizens since 1959, but with Operation CHAOS, President Johnson dramatically boosts the effort. CIA agents go undercover as student radicals to spy on and disrupt campus organizations protesting the Vietnam War. They are searching for Russian instigators, which they never find. CHAOS will eventually spy on 7,000 individuals and 1,000 organizations.

Bolivia — A CIA-organized military operation captures legendary guerilla Che Guevara. The CIA wants to keep him alive for interrogation, but the Bolivian government executes him to prevent worldwide calls for clemency.

1969

Uruguay — The notorious CIA torturer Dan Mitrione arrives in Uruguay, a country torn with political strife. Whereas right-wing forces previously used torture only as a last resort, Mitrione convinces them to use it as a routine, widespread practice. "The precise pain, in the precise place, in the precise amount, for the desired effect," is his motto. The torture techniques he teaches to the death squads rival the Nazis’. He eventually becomes so feared that revolutionaries will kidnap and murder him a year later.

1970

Cambodia — The CIA overthrows Prince Sahounek, who is highly popular among Cambodians for keeping them out of the Vietnam War. He is replaced by CIA puppet Lon Nol, who immediately throws Cambodian troops into battle. This unpopular move strengthens once minor opposition parties like the Khmer Rouge, which achieves power in 1975 and massacres millions of its own people.

1971

Bolivia — After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows the leftist President Juan Torres. In the next two years, dictator Hugo Banzer will have over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed.

Haiti — "Papa Doc" Duvalier dies, leaving his 19-year old son "Baby Doc" Duvalier the dictator of Haiti. His son continues his bloody reign with full knowledge of the CIA.

1972

Cambodia — Congress votes to cut off CIA funds for its secret war in Cambodia.

1973

Chile — The CIA overthrows and assassinates Salvador Allende, Latin America’s first democratically elected socialist leader. The problems begin when Allende nationalizes American-owned firms in Chile. ITT offers the CIA $1 million for a coup (reportedly refused). The CIA replaces Allende with General Augusto Pinochet, who will torture and murder thousands of his own countrymen in a crackdown on labor leaders and the political left.

1975

Australia — The CIA helps topple the democratically elected, left-leaning government of Prime Minister Edward Whitlam. The CIA does this by giving an ultimatum to its Governor-General, John Kerr. Kerr, a longtime CIA collaborator, exercises his constitutional right to dissolve the Whitlam government. The Governor-General is a largely ceremonial position appointed by the Queen; the Prime Minister is democratically elected. The use of this archaic and never-used law stuns the nation.

Angola — Eager to demonstrate American military resolve after its defeat in Vietnam, Henry Kissinger launches a CIA-backed war in Angola. Contrary to Kissinger’s assertions, Angola is a country of little strategic importance and not seriously threatened by communism. The CIA backs the brutal leader of UNITAS, Jonas Savimbi. This polarizes Angolan politics and drives his opponents into the arms of Cuba and the Soviet Union for survival. Congress will cut off funds in 1976, but the CIA is able to run the war off the books until 1984, when funding is legalized again. This entirely pointless war kills over 300,000 Angolans.

1979

El Salvador — An idealistic group of young military officers, repulsed by the massacre of the poor, overthrows the right-wing government. However, the U.S. compels the inexperienced officers to include many of the old guard in key positions in their new government. Soon, things are back to "normal" — the military government is repressing and killing poor civilian protesters. Many of the young military and civilian reformers, finding themselves powerless, resign in disgust.

Nicaragua — Anastasios Samoza II, the CIA-backed dictator, falls. The Marxist Sandinistas take over government, and they are initially popular because of their commitment to land and anti-poverty reform. Samoza had a murderous and hated personal army called the National Guard. Remnants of the Guard will become the Contras, who fight a CIA-backed guerilla war against the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s.

1980

El Salvador — The Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, pleads with President Carter "Christian to Christian" to stop aiding the military government slaughtering his people. Carter refuses. Shortly afterwards, right-wing leader Roberto D’Aubuisson has Romero shot through the heart while saying Mass. The country soon dissolves into civil war, with the peasants in the hills fighting against the military government. The CIA and U.S. Armed Forces supply the government with overwhelming military and intelligence superiority. CIA-trained death squads roam the countryside, committing atrocities like that of El Mazote in 1982, where they massacre between 700 and 1000 men, women and children. By 1992, some 63,000 Salvadorans will be killed.

1983

Honduras — The CIA gives Honduran military officers the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual – 1983, which teaches how to torture people. Honduras’ notorious "Battalion 316" then uses these techniques, with the CIA’s full knowledge, on thousands of leftist dissidents. At least 184 are murdered.

1986

Haiti — Rising popular revolt in Haiti means that "Baby Doc" Duvalier will remain "President for Life" only if he has a short one. The U.S., which hates instability in a puppet country, flies the despotic Duvalier to the South of France for a comfortable retirement. The CIA then rigs the upcoming elections in favor of another right-wing military strongman. However, violence keeps the country in political turmoil for another four years. The CIA tries to strengthen the military by creating the National Intelligence Service (SIN), which suppresses popular revolt through torture and assassination.

1989

Panama — The U.S. invades Panama to overthrow a dictator of its own making, General Manuel Noriega. Noriega has been on the CIA’s payroll since 1966, and has been transporting drugs with the CIA’s knowledge since 1972. By the late 80s, Noriega’s growing independence and intransigence have angered Washington… so out he goes.

1990

Haiti — Competing against 10 comparatively wealthy candidates, leftist priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide captures 68 percent of the vote. After only eight months in power, however, the CIA-backed military deposes him. More military dictators brutalize the country, as thousands of Haitian refugees escape the turmoil in barely seaworthy boats. As popular opinion calls for Aristide’s return, the CIA begins a disinformation campaign painting the courageous priest as mentally unstable.

1993

Haiti — The chaos in Haiti grows so bad that President Clinton has no choice but to remove the Haitian military dictator, Raoul Cedras, on threat of U.S. invasion. The U.S. occupiers do not arrest Haiti’s military leaders for crimes against humanity, but instead ensure their safety and rich retirements. Aristide is returned to power only after being forced to accept an agenda favorable to the country’s ruling class.
longly
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 10:26 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
The US is not a democracy we are a federal democratic republic. The system is primarily designed to promote the preservation of liberty for the individual American citizen. You made an indirect reference to the Electoral College system. It along with the senate exists to prevent the large states from dominating the small states. See in our system no one or any collective should have too much power. However our system operates under democratic principles. Example, the candidate who wins a majority of the electoral votes wins the presidency.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jun, 2019 10:33 pm
@longly,
Even though she won the majority of votes? Republicans elected their last two presidents on political tricks. Not much democracy as I see it.
0 Replies
 
 

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