Iranian war

@longly,

Longly wrote:

The US is not a democracy we are a federal democratic republic.

The U.S. is a democracy. Within the umbrella of democracy, it has it's own republican system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Quote:

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "rule by people") is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+a+democracy&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU766AU766&oq=what+is+a+democracy&aqs=chrome..69i57.6960j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Quote:

a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

Quote:

Definition of democracy
1a : government by the people
especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/democracy

Quote:

1. uncountable noun
Democracy is a system of government in which people choose their rulers by voting for them in elections.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095709688

Quote:

A political system that allows the citizens to participate in political decision‐making, or to elect representatives to government bodies. From: democracy in The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology »

Of course all definitions imply that the vote is not rigged.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

No one hears the voice of common people and hence I disagree that it is democracy in any shape and form. Everything in America is decided by special interest group who fund political campaigns and our politicians only protect these special interest groups not common people. BASICALLY, AVERAGE CITIZENS ONLY GET WHAT THEY WANT IF ECONOMIC ELITES OR INTEREST GROUPS ALSO WANT IT.

How would you justify gerrymandering?

Why having only two party system? Don’t tell me America does not have two party system when we all know it is two party system and rest are there but their presence does not make any difference.

Anyways I believe we are drifting away from our main topic for this thread which is Iran war and US love for so-called wars for democracy .

1 Reply

@HabibUrrehman,

Quote:

No one hears the voice of common people and hence I disagree that it is democracy in any shape and form.

Well, that would be an opinion on how well the democracy functions - not on whether or not the U.S. is a democracy.

Quote:

BASICALLY, AVERAGE CITIZENS ONLY GET WHAT THEY WANT IF ECONOMIC ELITES OR INTEREST GROUPS ALSO WANT IT.

Largely true - and one of the reasons we are in fact moving away from democracy, but still have it. We still have it because, we can still vote for our leaders, and within the system of democracy, those in power sometimes bend to:
- special interest groups (NRA, Feminism groups, Environmental Groups, etc)
- organised religions
- Unions
- well organised ethnic groups
- etc

It is within the power of any person, average or not, to start a special interest group. How big it grows, and how much power that special interest group gains, is up to how much common interest there is in such a group - and that too, is democratic.

Quote:

How would you justify gerrymandering?

I don't. If you recall I mentioned it previously - if not by name, when I talked about there not being any perfect system of voting (once you got into the nuts and bolts of how it works), and how it usually gets changed (even if it sometimes takes a while)

In any event, I quite understand why you don't consider it a democracy - but it is what it is - an opinion.

-----------------

As for war with Iran, the only one here arguing much for it is Oralloy.

On that note, I found it quite amusing when Oralloy said the U.S. was the only reason we (Australians) are free today...but in the thread on firearms, he said we aren't free (because we regulate our firearms).

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@HabibUrrehman,

HabibUrrehman wrote:

Below is just a short list of countries US helped to overthrow democratically elected governments around the world under the guise of bringing them democracy.

Many of those listed events had nothing to do with any overthrow of democracy.

Of the ones that did have something to do with the overthrow of democracy, the US had absolutely nothing to do with about half of them. And the other half were done to protect the world from totalitarian Communism.

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@HabibUrrehman,

HabibUrrehman wrote:

US does not have a democracy, how can it defend democracy?

The US has a democracy. We defend democracy by destroying threats to democracy.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

There are many invasions that cannot be categorised as 'the defense of democracy and civilisation'

I disagree.

vikorr wrote:

In each of course, there was an excuse, but the end result was still the same - the U.S. benefited greatly out of it. You even admit to one similar (occupation, and coup) in Panama. There are others.

I count protecting the Panama Canal as being in the interest of the civilized world.

vikorr wrote:

You can make all the excuses you like - they don't match the pattern of the U.S. benefiting (and for your benefit, being by far the primary beneficiary) from it's invasions. This is quite clear, so I won't buy lies (read PR / Propaganda) that don't match it.

I claim that our invasions are a near-perfect match to our goal of defending civilization and democracy.

The only possible exception would be Iraq-2003, and that is a justifiable fluke.

And even Iraq-2003 wasn't so bad. We toppled a dictatorship and left a democracy behind.

3 Replies

@oralloy,

Quote:

The only possible exception would be Iraq-2003, and that is a justifiable fluke.

This one gave me a good laugh, "justifiable fluke." Iraq was a mistake from the get-go. https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-reasons-that-the-Iraq-war-was-a-mistake. "It was based on a lie from the start

Nobody ever understood why USA was going to war with Iraq. Sure, we kept hearing something about WMD in the media, but nobody every understood why all of a sudden America was worried about Iraq when other countries posed greater threats. (Russia always had very advanced WMD, but America never chose to go to war with it.)

We also did not understand what WMD meant - why not just call them nukes? Maybe they were not sure if they had seen a nuclear facility or a chemical facility. Or maybe they wanted to call certain chemicals WMD in case they did not find anything more substantial. Anyway...

In the end, we learned that the Republican administration tricked American people with the narrative of WMD." Most of us knew it was wrong, because the US chased out the UN Weapons Inspectors to start their war. None was ever found.

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@cicerone imposter,

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/02/05/the-us-destruction-of-iraq-we-should-never-forget/

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Nobody ever understood why USA was going to war with Iraq.

That is incorrect. I understood.

cicerone imposter wrote:

We also did not understand what WMD meant

I knew exactly what the term means.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

I knew exactly what the term means.

It was the first time I ever heard the term. It was also, quite obviously, a lie.

The official reason for going to war with Iraq went as follows:

A. They have links to Al Qeida (world intelligence said 'no they don't, so they tried another tack)
B. They have nuclear weapons (UN inspectors said 'no they don't', so they tried another tack)
C. They want nuclear weapons (no one paid any attention to this, so they tried another tack)
D. They have weapons of mass destruction ! (now they had something no one understood, which scared people, and they went all out)
E. Chief weapons inspectors said 'no they don't' and they attacked Butlers credibility (what reason he'd have to lie, they never said) and destroyed his career (I think he saw that coming, but stood up and told the truth anyway). They in fact attacked any expert who disagreed with them. It was at this point I knew they were preparing for war.
F. Ignoring the UN weapons inspectors, they then asked for proof that the WoMD had been destroyed. About a year before this, the Australian Defence Force, with all it's computerisation, stated it couldn't account for all of it's inventory. It was at this point that I knew that war was imminent.

The pattern of behaviour above made it fairly obvious, to me, that they were lying. There was a great deal of cynicism here in Australia, but plenty still bought into the propaganda..

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

I count protecting the Panama Canal as being in the interest of the civilized world.

Presuming we are talking about the same topic - the coup & later invasion:

Of course. If it benefits you, it benefits everyone. Who gives a **** about other people in other countries that don't mean anything to you...

....Never mind that the U.S. could have help Panama out if and when it became necessary. No, don't worry about that, just run coups and invade it yourselves.

Tell yourself all the delusional feel good nonsense you like - that's all it is, narcissistic, unempathetic, justification for your countries evils in the name of greed, then pretend it's for the common good. Rolling Eyes

Mind you, while I don't expect you to change your mind, don't expect me to buy your self serving propaganda.

1 Reply

America, the land that embraced the phrase "Greed is good", out of the greed of it's heart:
- altruistically invaded all those countries...
- altruistically gained a benefit from them (seriously, it didn't actually want the benefit...how dare anyone suggest that0
- and yet will all that long list of invasions, rarely invaded a country that didn't benefit them, and studiously avoid invading countries that don't benefit them...oh no, no, no, this doesn't mean anything. IT's just coincidence. It's not because we are greedy, or want money, or only care to look after ourselves. Seriously, this pattern is just coincidence.

Then it told itself 'AREN'T WE GOOD!'

Well, probably before it told itself 'Aren't we good', it said 'what sort of story will make us out to be the good guys?"

Certainly I know that if I were greedy, corrupt, and in charge of the U.S., that's what I'd do. Make up a good story, put in place the pieces to make it 'credible' then hammer that 'credible' story to my ignorant subjects in the press.

I know a lot of gullible subjects would buy such. If it gained enough momentum (which is what I'd aim for), then my gullible subjects would self censor anyone who disagreed.

And the only way to know if that isn't being done to you, is to see if the actions match the words. Or see if it matches politicians historical behaviour in the lead up to wars. Etc.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

That is covered by 'Intrude', or 'Intervene'.

There will be No War.
Rest assured.

Only the ever impending prospect of one.

As long as the sheep are distracted - The Wolves can herd them into any coral they (At the shepherds' design) so choose.

And you folks are proving this with your every post.

Spreadeth ye angst - Angst doth expand.

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@longly,

How is it democratic - If every voters' vote is made redundant by the electoral college's post-intervention.

The horses in the race are Not chosen by the audience (racegoers).
They place bets on their (favourites) runner/s - They don't select who runs.

I've Never voted - So it doesn't matter.
It is clearly a 'rigged' race - by any standards.

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@oralloy,

You 'defend' democracy (an 'ideal') by destroying 'threats' (In any and All form/s) that encroach therewith.

Isn't that called 'Dictatorship'?

And why do you defend 'it', please?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

I trained explosives "sappers" in "operation Sand Flea" and I was a contractor. What a cluster **** that entire operation was. We made up dubious claims against an ally who was clearly anti-communist, and the drug charges were at best, ''fake news".

Trouble with being half informed by reading but one side's propaganda, we never fully understand the events going down (no matter how much you claim you do)

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@farmerman,

Well stated.

But - that 'single-mindedness' (blinkered) is a (Cultural) insert - Called 'Patriotism' - That is easily swallowed by the offspring of the generationally predisposed.

I wrote a verse - Titled:

''Come Over Here, Boy! The Battle Has begun!' Said The Patriotic Racist to His Idolising Son.'

The title is drawn from a typical dad urging his sons' attendance at the Tv-set for his teams' football final. In order to induce transient frequencies of euphoria and despair into a blank mind.

Dad isn't aware of his implant-technique - he just wants his kid to understand what generates his own ideal/s.

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@farmerman,

So true! The government lies so often, it's a mistake to give them trust on almost anything. Their lies can end up killing innocent people and human history, and the public just ignore them. Trump's current policy that separates children from their parents is unethical in every way, and yet, many Americans support this monster. It's hopeless. Trump has a history of racism, lying, scamming, and cheating on all his wives. Psychiatrists have shared their fear of Trump's mental instability. The man is unfit to be the president of this country in every way possible. What's wrong with the American electorate?

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@cicerone imposter,

The Iraq War was a good example of overkill that destroyed human history based on lies. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/brutal-destruction-of-ira_b_290667

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

The pattern of behaviour above made it fairly obvious, to me, that they were lying. There was a great deal of cynicism here in Australia, but plenty still bought into the propaganda..

The whole thing was pretty silly. For some reason they wanted people to endorse the war instead of just simply going ahead with the attack.

They should have just told the world "we're going to go kill Saddam so everyone stay out of our way" and left it at that.

1 Reply

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