Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

@Kolyo,

Kolyo wrote:

Nooneleft wrote:
STOP shitting yourself and realize for once in your misguided life that there is no GOD!!! Your bible is a damn doorstop so get over yourself ... OR be brainwashed like the rest of these bible thumping morons!!
You have been believing in the worlds longest lasting lie!!

Don't be too hard on him, Noone.
Some people have a hard time dealing, emotionally, with the possibility that there may be no God.

And others have a hard time dealing with the possibility that there may in fact be one.

We don't actually know the answer to that question, so I don't know why so many Atheists are so vehement, and act as if it were a given that their faith is the correct one.

And actually, the questions "Is there a God?" "Is there an afterlife?" and "Is there some sort of system of divine justice?" are all independent from each other.

It is possible for there to be a God who runs the universe but has no regard for humanity, with humans winking out of existence without any afterlife when they die. What if all our prayers were answered by Nyarlathotep?

It is also possible for there to be no God, but for there to still be an afterlife that our spirits enjoy after we die. Maybe in such a system when people pray, their prayers are heard not by God, but by the spirits of their ancestors.

In the end though, the ultimate answer is "no one knows". Perhaps clues can be gleaned from people who have near death experiences. Perhaps not. But if any answers are to be found at all, that is where we will likely find them.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

It has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with truth.

I can assure you that you do not know the truth behind what you think I do not know...but you just think you do...because it is an ego...not what God would want...but for us to be simple minded...and do, and say and think everything...with God in mind...and understand that everything is because of him, and he is God...and no one else is....God is the reason for everything...

But you can only know the truth of what you think you do not know...If you wanted to look at it from that perspective...

Quote:

I have often contended that a good understanding of the first three Bible chapters would provide the reader with more insight than a lifetime of Sunday sermons in christendom. So:

I can agree with the premise you are saying here...but that means the whole book...not just Genesis...including the scriptures about Jesus' resurrection...No? Why read Genesis, and believe it...if you do not believe Luke 16...John 3:16...2 Corinthians...etc...I am interested in hearing your answer...

Quote:

Are you ready to deny that Adam and Eve would still be alive today had they not sinned?

Never...the Bible says that the penalty of sin is death...

Quote:

Or, are you saying God's purpose changed because of their sin?

God is incomprehensible...and can do anything...nothing is impossible...and God is not limited in anyway...God can do all things...

The actual Bible or scripture backs this up more than it does for your positioning...please point out what scripture points out what you have claimed...

Quote:

I'd like to hear your answer.

I gave you mine...now I would like to hear yours above...

Quote:

Going back one verse: (1 Peter 3:18-20) " . . . Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. 19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water." So who were the spirits? Is that what you mean? The only spirits notably mentioned in Noah's day were those angels who forsook their heavenly place to materialize and have relations with humans. They were no longer able to do so after the flood; hence, were in prison.

So your position is that God came to save Angels? Why would God need to save something "by all accounts" that are not considered to have to physically die?

What prison would they be in...if you can just die...Do you think Angels live on forever? Why wouldn't a human being?

You mean he came to save disobedient Angels? Wouldn't God also want to save disobedient souls? (Which the Bible claims are higher than Angels are anyways)...And wouldn't God then want to save anyone who calls upon him, if not everyone? Because he could do it, if he can with disobedient Angels?

1 Reply

@neologist,

What do you personally believe "God" is there for?

What do you think God is doing, and what is he a God of to you...If we can just die to be free of whatever prison we have self created?

Wouldn't it be better to not know these things, so a human never has to actually do it? Since they would never create any personal prisons?

Would they not live on forever, as you have asked me if I was willing to deny about Adam and Eve? What is the difference?

Or is it more likely we will all have to make a choice...and God is the way to redemption, and liberation, and freedom?

2 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

What do you personally believe "God" is there for?

What do you think God is doing, and what is he a God of to you...If we can just die to be free of whatever prison we have self created?

Wouldn't it be better to not know these things, so a human never has to actually do it? Since they would never create any personal prisons?

"Should've been dead
On a Sunday morning
Banging my head
No time for mourning
Ain't got no time

(And I said, oh)
So I held my head up high
Hiding hate that burns inside
Which only fuels their selfish pride
(And I said, oh)
We're all held captive out from the sun
A sun that shines on only some
We the meek are all in one

I cry out to God
Seeking only His decision
Gabriel stands and confirms
I've created my own prison "

My Own Prison- Creed

1 Reply

@tomr,

What is the way to liberation once we are guilty of sin? Is it to just die, or seek God as we have to die? Isn't it better to seek God even if we have to just die to be freed from our own prisons?

Once we die, and are liberated, why wouldn't God have us live on forever, since we are freed from our own prisons, and can not create anymore? So God wants us to die to be liberated, but not live on forever with him without these prisons anymore, but has the ability to do it? Why?

It doesn't make any sense...

0 Replies

@XXSpadeMasterXX,

You have touched on more topics than I thought I had brought up.

Both angels and humans are mortal and can die. Humans are currently under sentence of death as a result of Adam's sin. The disobedient angels of Noah's day have been sentenced to death but are still alive, unable to take human form, but quite able to influence world events as subjects of their ruler, the "god of this system of things".(2 Corinthians 4:4)

I'm a bit confused by your argument about the mortality of the soul. I contend the soul loses consciousness at death. and can hope only in the resurrection and the time when death will be destroyed. (1 Corinthians 15:26)

You mentioned Luke Ch 16. Were you referring to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? It is a parable, remember; read it carefully and you will see how it surely is symbolic.

You cited John 3:16, but did not mention why. Also 2 Corinthians, etc., whatever I'm supposed to wring from that. Of course, without Jesus we could never escape Satan's grasp. (Ephesians 1:7 and others)

In the end, I have few points to make:
Humans were created with the prospect of living forever on earth and God did not abandon his purpose, nor did He intend that humans should prove themselves on earth in order to gain greater status or glory. The time will come when he will set all things aright. (Revelation 21: 3,4)

The punishment for sin is death. God did not mention baking, boiling, frying, or broiling; so we can conclude that a burning hell is not something that has ever entered his heart. (Jeremiah 7:31)

The fact that some are chosen for heavenly life to rule as kings with Jesus is proof not only of the existence of a kingdom over which to rule, but that their number must be limited. I surely do not consider myself in that class but in the subject class.

I've already written much more than I usually post. If i have missed something, let me know.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I'm having some difficulty unwrapping the thoughts behind your questions. I'll try this one:

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

....Would they not live on forever, as you have asked me if I was willing to deny about Adam and Eve? What is the difference? . .

I believe the question centered around Adam and Eve - would they still be here had they not sinned? My answer is yes and the difference is we would not have experienced centuries of human travail and misery. Does that answer your question?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

. . . . It is possible for there to be a God who runs the universe but has no regard for humanity, with humans winking out of existence without any afterlife when they die. What if all our prayers were answered by Nyarlathotep?. . .

Surely if there existed a God with the power to create in us the qualities of love, justice, and wisdom, He must of necessity, possess them in greater degree Himself. Wouldn't you think?

2 Replies

@extra medium,

Jesus is definitely easier to deal with than Jahveh was. I don't have any sort of a theory as t o what to make of some of the stories you read in the OT, particularly the tale of the city of Ai.

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

Thanks for slitherin' by Gunga. What is it about Ai that confounds? Was it God's punishment of Israel for Achan's sin? Perhaps it was to teach us the importance of keeping the congregation clean. Imagine what God must think of human governments. (Daniel 2:44)

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

oralloy wrote:
. . . . It is possible for there to be a God who runs the universe but has no regard for humanity, with humans winking out of existence without any afterlife when they die. What if all our prayers were answered by Nyarlathotep?. . .

Surely if there existed a God with the power to create in us the qualities of love, justice, and wisdom, He must of necessity, possess them in greater degree Himself. Wouldn't you think?

In the scenario that you are referring to, it would be very unlikely that we were God's creation.

If Nyarlathotep had created us, love, justice and wisdom would be the least of our traits.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

. . . In the scenario that you are referring to, it would be very unlikely that we were God's creation.

Damaged goods, I would aver. But not damaged by God.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Damaged goods, I would aver. But not damaged by God.

Nyarlathotep thinks damage is fun.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Nyarlathotep thinks damage is fun.

Glad he's just a figment of H. P. Lovecraft"s imagination.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

he's just a figment of H. P. Lovecraft's imagination.

Says who?

Remember you were addressing a scenario that was considering the possibility that God is Nyarlathotep in reality.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Surely if there existed a God with the power to create in us the qualities of love, justice, and wisdom, He must of necessity, possess them in greater degree Himself. Wouldn't you think?

Surely you are projecting what you want to believe. If your god created in humans the qualities of love, justice and wisdom, his or her workmanship was piss poor, considering the number of hateful, unjust and just plain stupid humans of whom we have abundant historical records.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Actually, I was dismissing the possibility

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

neologist wrote:
Surely if there existed a God with the power to create in us the qualities of love, justice, and wisdom, He must of necessity, possess them in greater degree Himself. Wouldn't you think?
Surely you are projecting what you want to believe. If your god created in humans the qualities of love, justice and wisdom, his or her workmanship was piss poor, considering the number of hateful, unjust and just plain stupid humans of whom we have abundant historical records.

Mornin' Set. Looks like we are once again dancing around the subject of Genesis and the so-called 'fall of man'. I've always believed it to be a perfectly good explanation of our condition, even if considered only in an allegorical sense. You know my take: Our parents were created perfect and everything was fine until they were conscripted by one of God's 'angels' into a rebellion, the accompanying issues of which have yet to be resolved. So the hateful, unjust, and just plain stupid humans we suffer are not part of God's creation or purpose.

1 Reply

@neologist,

You wrote "created in us," not in Adam and Eve. The only dancing going on here is in your exegesis.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Sorry for my imprecision. I thought it self evident that the traits imbued in Adam and Eve would be passed on to us, albeit imperfectly. I should have been more explicit.

1 Reply

Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

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