Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

@Glennn,

You're starting to sound like a politician in a debate.

Good night Glennn.

@Leadfoot,

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You're starting to sound like a politician in a debate.

I'll bet you say that to all the ones who ask the hard questions that expose your perspective as being limited by the confines of your belief. Shocked

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@Glennn,

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I'll bet you say that to all the ones ...

You are over working that line.

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@Glennn,

I wrote:

The book of Job is not merely about Job. It is about us.

Glennn wrote:

No. It's about the god being goaded into proving what it was unsure of. Your superciliousness blinds you to this.

I'm sorry you can't understand that the entire human race is in the same position as Job. Satan has all along contended that no one will serve God willingly, except out of selfishness. We differ only in degree of misery.

Have a good day.

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@Leadfoot,

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You are over working that line.

You are overlooking my point . . . again!

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@neologist,

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I'm sorry you can't understand that the entire human race is in the same position as Job. Satan has all along contended that no one will serve God willingly, except out of selfishness.

If you told me that your dog is absolutely loyal to you, and I tell you that your dog is loyal to you only because you give it shelter and provide food for him, what will everyone think of you if you allow me to remove the shelter and food from your dog's life just to prove me wrong? I will tell you. You would be seen as someone whose buttons are easily pushed, and an abuser of your own pet.

The fact that your dog would still lick your hand after you felt the need to selfishly prove your point to me at your dog's expense is neither here nor there in this equation. And the fact that you would take your dog to the vet and give him back his shelter and food, and pat him on the head after subjecting him to such an ordeal is also neither here nor there. The point is that, in the context of the scenario I have just provided, your prideful selfishness is obvious. But when the same scenario is shown to you in which the god is the abuser, you exhibit symptoms of cognitive dissonance. And my scenario didn't even include the killing of your dogs friends as was done in the case of Job's servants. The humorous thing is that you believe that I'm the one who doesn't understand!

The god allowed Job to be ruined and his servants murdered in order to prove something to Satan. In reality, the only thing that was proven was that the god can be manipulated into allowing his servant to be beaten down, and the servants of that servant to be killed just to prove a point. Pride goeth before a fall, eh? Satan had his way on that day, and you can't see it.

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@Glennn,

What you fail to realize is that Satan has been having his way every day since Eden. There have been only few exceptions. You would have to read the bible with an open mind to discern them. But then you would realize that Satan's dominion has an expiration date and all those who have been tortured by Satan's hand will be restored.

You and I may rightly feel Satan's time has long since expired; but God is the one keeping the clock.

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@neologist,

Time and fixation has crystalized your mind to the extent that you have become incapable of recognizing the blatant inconsistency within the story. The god set limits to what Satan could do to Job, yet did allow Satan to kill Job's servants. You need to think about that instead of thinking around it.

According to the story, the god bragged about Job, and then promptly had its buttons pushed by Satan, and the god allowed Satan to torment Job and kill his servants as a result. This puts the god in a bad light. You need to stop and examine yourself to determine at what point in your life you came to see a holy being where there is clearly only an out-of-control egomaniac bent of glorifying itself and demanding that you do so, too.

You would have to read the Bible with a clear and open mind to understand what it means that Satan has been having his way every day; specifically what it means about the god. Then you would realize that Satan's domination has no expiration date because the god is obviously incapable of stopping the corruption that resulted from its very own creation, and from its very own hand. Either that, or the god you love and worship surely loves corruption. Those are your only two choices, unless you want to continue hanging on to your belief that one day the god will show its face.

The god's promise to restore those who've been tortured by Satan is shown to be an empty promise. The torture has occurred and has had its effect. You believe that torture can be undone. But when it happened--and happens--it is done. What have you come to believe about that?

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@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

Time and fixation has crystalized your mind to the extent that you have become incapable of recognizing the blatant inconsistency within the story. The god set limits to what Satan could do to Job, yet did allow Satan to kill Job's servants. You need to think about that instead of thinking around it.

Satan killed all of Job's children as well.
Totally evil, I agree.
Have you taken into account that the same bible that relates these awful tragedies promises a new chance at life for those who died? Without Satan.
Of course, you might be inclined to say the entire bible is hogwash; if that is truly your view, then the account of Job should be discounted. And, if it's all fiction, there's no criminal. So, what's your beef?

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@Glennn,

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The god set limits to what Satan could do to Job, yet did allow Satan to kill Job's servants. You need to think about that instead of thinking around it.

As I have told you several times, I am not 'thinking around it' at all.

Here is the fact that you are unable to wrap your head around. Every human life is not sacred. God is willing to expend the majority of humanity in order to get what he wants. Don't expect me to apologize for that.

If that invalidates the existence or the goodness of God for you, that's unfortunate. I hope you can someday see past this obstacle to what God's goal is.

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@neologist,

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Satan killed all of Job's children as well.

Yes, that was the god's plan, and that's what happened. What's not to praise? What's not to worship? What's not to love?

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Have you taken into account that the same bible that relates these awful tragedies promises a new chance at life for those who died?

Yes, I have taken that into account. I've also taken into account that this is total conjecture on your part, and the source of this conjecture is a book, the contents of which you have chosen to believe regardless of the inconsistencies. It's not based on yours or anyone else's experience or even anecdotal evidence.

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. . . if it's all fiction, there's no criminal. So, what's your beef?

To you it is not fiction. I'm showing you the inconsistencies in your belief system that you've chosen to accept rather than respond correctly to. The god would not condone the murder of Job, but was okay with the murder of his children and his servants. The god had something it thought it needed to prove, and so people suffered and died. The fact that you don't see the problem there is perfectly indicative of your blind investment in this belief system.

You wouldn't torment your dog and kill its puppies simply because I told you that they wouldn't like you afterwards. Do you think you would do it even if you were capable of taking your dog to the vet afterwards and then raise the dead puppies from the grave? Are you so egotistical that you would cause such suffering and death simply because I pushed your buttons? Wouldn't believing such foolishness when it comes to the character of the god qualify as blasphemy?

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@Leadfoot,

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As I have told you several times, I am not 'thinking around it' at all.

Where did I accuse you of that?

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God is willing to expend the majority of humanity in order to get what he wants.

Yes, I understand that you honestly believe that.

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If that invalidates the existence or the goodness of God for you, that's unfortunate.

If the god's willingness to expend the majority of humanity in order to get what it wants validates the goodness of the god for you, that's unfortunate.

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@Glennn,

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Leadfoot Quote:
"As I have told you several times, I am not 'thinking around it' at all."

Where did I accuse you of that?

You are constantly accusing me of that. most recently you phrased it as:

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You are overlooking my point . . . again!

Means exactly the same thing.

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@Glennn,

I wrote:

Satan killed all of Job's children as well. . .

Glennn wrote:

Yes, that was the god's plan, and that's what happened. What's not to praise? What's not to worship? What's not to love?

Satan has you and me targeted for death, also. So, who do you worship?

Glennn wrote:

. . . Wouldn't believing such foolishness about the god qualify as blasphemy?

If that's what you believe, yes.

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@Glennn,

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If the god's willingness to expend the majority of humanity in order to get what it wants validates the goodness of the god for you, that's unfortunate.

That is not what validates it for me but it does not invalidate it, as it seems to do for you.

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@neologist,

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Satan has you and me targeted for death, also.

Also? You mean both the god and Satan have targeted you for death? No one has you targeted for death. You are seeing assassins where there is only your lifecycle.

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So, who do you worship?

I do not worship anyone. Why would I do that?

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If that's what you believe, yes.

But I'm not the one who believes it. You are the one who believes that the god bragged to Satan about what an upstanding guy Job was. And you are the one who believes that the god condoned the torment of Job and the murder of his children and servants because Satan maneuvered it into that position by pushing its buttons.

We've already established that if I told you that your dog was loyal to you only because you are the provider of his food and shelter, you would not remove those things from his life and kill his puppies just to prove to me that he would still lick your hand after such abuse. And yet that's what you believe the god has done. Therefore, my question is legitimate. Wouldn't believing such foolishness about the god qualify as blasphemy?

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@Leadfoot,

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That is not what validates it for me but it does not invalidate it

Well let me rephrase that, then. If the god's willingness to expend the majority of humanity to get what it wants does not invalidate the idea of the goodness of the god for you, that's unfortunate.

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@Glennn,

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Well let me rephrase that, then. If the god's willingness to expend the majority of humanity to get what it wants does not invalidate the idea of the goodness of the god for you, that's unfortunate.

Depends on how you look at it and your priorities. You apparently value this life on earth for yourself and all others above all else. You have the freedom to do that.

At it's core, that is what the wager between God and Satan was. Satan is betting that everyone will make the choice you did, including the very best of men. He lost that bet on Job..

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@Leadfoot,

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Satan is betting that everyone will make the choice you did,

No one took anything from me. What choice are you talking about?

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@Glennn,

I assume from that comment that you believe there is no other choice.
That too is a choice.

But in case you didn't read what I said before:

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You apparently value this life on earth for yourself and all others above all else.

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Can Souls in Hell be Forgiven and Saved and Go to Heaven?

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