1
   

Who is a terrorist?

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 05:25 am
Ticomaya wrote:
old europe wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
It also doesn't mean we abdicate our right of self preservation. We aren't required to wait for the UN to allow us to act in our best interests.


Yep, agree. But the UN doesn't. Every nation has the right to defend itself against an attack. Now you might wish to tell me: when exactly did Iraq attack the United States?


You suggest we must wait for Iraq to attack the US. That is a view shared by our past President, and a good reason the terrorists grew stronger during the 90's - this failure to hold terrorist supporting states accountable. That is but one of many good reasons why Iraq was invaded ... but I've made this argument before, and you've heard it before, so we need not go into it here.


Quite obviously, your reasons have failed to impress, Tico. Could it be because they are based on even bigger fabrications? Your circuitous logic is astonishing and your naivete [wish that it were so] is even more so. Please do go into these "many good reasons".

The facts are clear, the facts were clear two years ago, there were NO good reasons.

==================

IMPEACHMENT TIME: "FACTS WERE FIXED."

Thursday, May 5, 2005
By Greg Palast

Here it is. The smoking gun. The memo that has "IMPEACH HIM" written all over it.

The top-level government memo marked "SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL," dated eight months before Bush sent us into Iraq, following a closed meeting with the President, reads, "Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam through military action justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

Read that again: "The intelligence and facts were being fixed...."

For years, after each damning report on BBC TV, viewers inevitably ask me, "Isn't this grounds for impeachment?" -- vote rigging, a blind eye to terror and the bin Ladens before 9-11, and so on. Evil, stupidity and self-dealing are shameful but not impeachable. What's needed is a "high crime or misdemeanor."

And if this ain't it, nothing is.

The memo uncovered this week by the Times, goes on to describe an elaborate plan by George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair to hoodwink the planet into supporting an attack on Iraq knowing full well the evidence for war was a phony.

A conspiracy to commit serial fraud is, under federal law, racketeering. However, the Mob's schemes never cost so many lives.

Here's more. "Bush had made up his mind to take military action. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran."

{CONTINUED AT}

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=426&row=0

===================
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 07:20 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
blatham wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
No mystery here. A terrorist is someone who deliberately attacks civilians as the primary, intended target.


Using this definition then, Eric Rudolf is properly thought of as a 'terrorist'.

I think so, but I'd have to re-read the details of the crime. Here is why I say this. Please bear in mind that I am not indicating his approval for his crime, which I don't approve of, but just discussing my definition of terrorism.

Rudolph could construct an argument that the people who ran the clinic were not civilians, but direct participants in his war. Not second-hand participants who were semi-involved at some step of the matter, but the people actually directly responsible. What would qualify him for being described as a terrorist is to see whether he had taken precautions to insure that only clinic workers were hurt. I believe that he did not, and if this is so, then he is a terrorist by my definition.

My use of the word "civilian" is not intended to indicate someone who is not in the army, but someone who is not directly abetting the opposition. An Israeli citizen in a market place that was bombed would qualify as a civilian, because even though he may have voted for the Israeli government, this is a much lower threshold of participation than I require.


The details (admitted):
1) the bombing of an abortion clinic resulting in the death of a police officer and the maiming of a nurse

2) the Centennial Park Atlanta 1996 Olympic Games bomb (he used nails for shrapnel) that killed a female games attendee and injured 110, some very seriously (for memory refresher, HERE )

3) two further bombings

Quote:
Rudolph could construct an argument that the people who ran the clinic were not civilians, but direct participants in his war.

Who might not 'construct' such an argument? I could put a glass shard and nail bomb in the headquarters of the RNC, believing I was at war with them, and so long as only RNC staff were blown up - no 'innocent bystanders' or 'civilians' whom I was careful to avoid injuring - then my act might possibly be something other than terrorism?

I'm curious as to whether anyone actually read the CJR piece at the lead here. The significant point is that we tend to use 'terrorist' as a word to describe someone who isn't much like us - he's the other guy. He's a 'spiritual warrior' or an 'extremist' (as in the Oklahoma City bombing), but he's caucasian and perhaps a christian, so 'terrorist' doesn't fit.

When Israel blew up the Brit barracks (during the time Britain was in control of Israel and the Israelis were fighting what they considered an illegal occupation) the Israelis would not have used 'terrorist' to describe their actions. The Brit papers, on the other hand, did refer to them in that manner.

The 'terrorist' is the other guy. He doesn't look like us, speak like us, dress like us.

What would your response be if Eric Rudolph, in police interrogations following his arrest, was stripped naked and had a light stick shoved up his ass, or if he was washboarded, or stripped naked and covered in feces, or had dogs set on him, or had his head covered and electrodes attached to his genitals - all in order to discover whether he had accomplices who might be planning to commit further bombings?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:06 am
I consider people like Rudolph and McVeigh to be terrorists. The difference between them and people like Bin Laden and Moussaoui is the organaization behind them and around them. Rudolph and McVeigh were loners, acting on their own. Surely you see the difference between them and al Qaeda, right?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:10 am
JTT wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
old europe wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
It also doesn't mean we abdicate our right of self preservation. We aren't required to wait for the UN to allow us to act in our best interests.


Yep, agree. But the UN doesn't. Every nation has the right to defend itself against an attack. Now you might wish to tell me: when exactly did Iraq attack the United States?


You suggest we must wait for Iraq to attack the US. That is a view shared by our past President, and a good reason the terrorists grew stronger during the 90's - this failure to hold terrorist supporting states accountable. That is but one of many good reasons why Iraq was invaded ... but I've made this argument before, and you've heard it before, so we need not go into it here.


Quite obviously, your reasons have failed to impress, Tico. Could it be because they are based on even bigger fabrications? Your circuitous logic is astonishing and your naivete [wish that it were so] is even more so. Please do go into these "many good reasons".

The facts are clear, the facts were clear two years ago, there were NO good reasons.


If you want to read any of my arguments in support of the Iraq war, feel free to search for same on A2K politics forum. You've been around for a few months ... I'm sure you've heard them already. I'm not inclined to go into them in detail again right now. I realize that bleeding-heart anti-war leftists hold the view that no war is justified, and I am wasting my time even commenting further. Carry on with your anti-Bush, anti-US agenda.


Greg Palast wants Bush impeached? What a shock. He's just throwing red meat to his rabid fans in the "Blame America First" club. Have fun with your protest.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:16 am
God created an entire world and then allowed it to be perverted by Satan and two individuals, and has led His creation to the verge of extinction through bloody wars, unspeakable acts of perversion and murder, and promises to eventually lead us to the final battle at which point He will return and send most of His creations into a fiery pit where they will burn forever.

I'd call that a terrorist by anyones definition.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:18 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
God created an entire world and then allowed it to be perverted by Satan and two individuals, and has led His creation to the verge of extinction through bloody wars, unspeakable acts of perversion and murder, and promises to eventually lead us to the final battle at which point He will return and send most of His creations into a fiery pit where they will burn forever.

I'd call that a terrorist by anyones definition.


That's an interesting view, BVT. When was the last time you read the Bible? Might be time for a refresher.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:19 am
What fact did I mis-state?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:23 am
That little omission about free will.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:26 am
God is, if he chooses, able to intervene in any situation any time. Jesus said so Himself. All things work to God's purpose. Accurate statement right? Backbone of faith, right? The buck stops up top old buddy.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:49 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
God is, if he chooses, able to intervene in any situation any time. Jesus said so Himself. All things work to God's purpose. Accurate statement right? Backbone of faith, right? The buck stops up top old buddy.

By that logic, then, wouldn't you have considered the US to be a terrorist if it didn't invade Iraq and put a stop to Saddam's evil ways and support of terrorism?

-----

God intervened in the sense that he planned a spiritual intervention by sending Jesus to reveal His plan for the salvation of those he loves, and to die on the cross, and rise from the dead, showing us the one who assured us of God's love by becoming a sacrifice for sin. It is not up to us in the world to say when God is intervening in human affairs ... whether in peace or war.

-----

The Christian apologist CS. Lewis wrote:
"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world."
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:52 am
I DO consider the current US government to be terorists. They just aren't bombing my side of the playground right now.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:52 am
oops
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:54 am
Ticomaya wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
God is, if he chooses, able to intervene in any situation any time. Jesus said so Himself. All things work to God's purpose. Accurate statement right? Backbone of faith, right? The buck stops up top old buddy.

By that logic, then, wouldn't you have considered the US to be a terrorist if it didn't invade Iraq and put a stop to Saddam's evil ways and support of terrorism?

-----

God intervened in the sense that he planned a spiritual intervention by sending Jesus to reveal His plan for the salvation of those he loves, and to die on the cross, and rise from the dead, showing us the one who assured us of God's love by becoming a sacrifice for sin. It is not up to us in the world to say when God is intervening in human affairs ... whether in peace or war.

-----

The Christian apologist CS. Lewis wrote:
"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world."


Then why does Bush claim that he is acting under God's direction?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 09:29 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
I DO consider the current US government to be terorists. They just aren't bombing my side of the playground right now.


I understand you think the US is a terrorist government. What I'd asked you was, given the logic you had just presented, wouldn't you also consider the US to be a terrorist goverment if it didn't invade Iraq?

blueveinedthrobber wrote:
The Christian apologist CS. Lewis wrote:
"God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world."


Then why does Bush claim that he is acting under God's direction?


Ask him. If you do, I imagine he would tell you God is not forcing him to do anything. There's that free will thing again.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 09:35 am
Then let's leave God out of all this bullshit why don't we?

Allah tells terrorists to kill us, Jesus tells us to kill them, but it's our gift of free will on which we act.

Leave God alone and take some personal responsibility, all of you.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 09:35 am
edit..I'm getting all these double posts today..sorry...
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 09:46 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Your post is irrelevant. My point is that most people would regard some examples of killing to be far less ethical than others.


And other people would regard some other examples of killing to be far more ethical than others. If that was all you wanted to state, there you go. You're basically saying that you aren't above the terrorists' morals, you're just on the other side.

I had said that I draw "a moral distinction between the WW2 liberation of Paris and a serial killer who offs people for fun." Do you not draw a moral distinction between those two things?


Do you draw a moral distinction between Terry Nichols and Ramzi Yousef?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 10:00 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Then let's leave God out of all this bullshit why don't we?

Allah tells terrorists to kill us, Jesus tells us to kill them, but it's our gift of free will on which we act.

Leave God alone and take some personal responsibility, all of you.


Weren't you the one that brought God up? Calling Him a terrorist?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 10:09 am
I was making a point. I know you get it.

We're all terrorists buddy. Whether or not it's acceptable depends on what side of the ass whoopin you're on.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 10:25 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
I was making a point. I know you get it.

We're all terrorists buddy. Whether or not it's acceptable depends on what side of the ass whoopin you're on.


I didn't realize that was your point, and I don't agree with it at all. 'We're all terrorists" is liberal BS that I refuse to swallow. The fact that you can't seem to make a moral distinction between the actions of the US, and the actions of the islamo-terrorists, is evident, ... but it doesn't mean there isn't one.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/26/2024 at 02:18:58