QKid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 11:21 pm
Moishe3rd wrote:

For the Islamic apologists (using "apologist" in the philosophical, not prejorative sense):
Please explain why the majority of Islam; or Islamic leaders; or Islamic journalists; or other major Islamic spokespeople do not condemn, categorically, without prevarication, without excuse - the murder of innocents in the name of Islam.
Why are there no fatwas on bin Laden the Putrefying? On Arafat the Rotting? On Zarqawi the Pig? Why?
Why are there not mullahs screaming from the top of every muzzein: "You who butcher innocents in the name of Allah are forever condemned to Eternal Damnation! You who massacre your brother, your sister, even unto the infidel are cast out, are forever cut off from Dar Islam!"
Why?


Well I do not know why more leaders dont speak out against it. That is not a question for me, how can it be? I dont speak on behalf of others. Noone does. That should be addressed to those you think should address it. Dont try to put the blame on me, or anyone else. But if you were asking me whether I agree or disagree with those terrible acts then i would definitely say I am "STRICTLY" against it because Islam is against it.

Why are there no new fatwas passed on this issue?? Well fatwas are rulings which are derived from Quran and Hadiths. And there are already fatwas passed on condeming these acts. You cant just pass a fatwa again on the same issue because it already exists. But fatwas should be passed for any new situations that arises. But these are not new situations. Islam has condemned hurting the innocent from the begining. Even during war times, Muslims cannot harm the innocent, children, or females.

Etruscia,
So you admit your own statement "sounds like a contradiction". But I showed you already how it is a contradiction. Not sounds like one. Your statements contradict. I am sorry but I cannot give an answer because I dont understand what you mean. I showed you why you cannot say Islam should take "some" of the blame for it. Please clear this up. Until then, adios amigos.
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:52 am
Moishe3rd,

1) Wasn't Hitler a Jew that converted to Christianity, who committed the worse of genocides against Jews and was going to eradicate all races from the face of Earth?
Do I blame Christianity? No
No one has ever said that Christianity of Judaism is the source of terrorism and evil.

2) Isn't Milosevic and General Mladic Catholics who committed one of the worse genocides ever happened in the planets against Bosnians who are Muslims?
Do I blame Catholic religion? No
No one have ever said that Catholic religion is the source of terrorism and evil

3) Who has ever used the most terrorizing and most powerful weaponry against civilians?
My country has used nuclear bombs to punish two cities that we blew up completely and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians that didn't have anything to do with the war. Were they fighting? Most of who died were just normal people living in peace with their families in their cities.
Do I say that my country is the most terrorizing country in the world? No one has ever said that the US is the source of terrorism and evil in the world.

4) SADDAM has gazed his own people. He is definitely an evil man.
Don't you see that his own people, Muslims or Shiaas are bringing him to Justice?

Why blaming Islam when we all know that hypocrites are in every religion. Why blaming Islam when its teachings are resumed in spreading Justice among people and submitting to GOD, the Most wise and Most powerful and that every single evil action anybody makes could take him to the severest Eternal punishment of GOD.

I advise you, Dear brother, to change your way of arguing with people. If you are of a Jewish faith I know it is hard for you to admit the truth ness of Islam but Islam is inviting you to read the Quran and since you believe in GOD, who is capable of everything, why don't you loose your arrogance and submit to him fully. Why don't you be open-minded and just with others when you know for sure that GOD is watching every single action you make? Why don't you fear what is gonna come after this short life? You know we will all die. After resurrection there will be a DAY of JUDGMENT and an eternal destination for all of us. What 100 years of Earthly life represent versus the Eternal life, a 0.0000000000000001% I am 100% sure it is much less than that. Is it worth it to put your life in stake and be away from the true purpose of this negligible life? Don't take me wrong, I am a Muslim and enjoying every second of my life until the Almighty GOD, the owner of my soul, take back his belonging.

As a Muslim I must believe in all the prophets and the holy books sent with them and must respect the people of the Book who are the Jews and the Christians so I am not gonna go far and accuse you, Jews or Christians for anything they have not done but as I Muslim I will only denounce the Criminals and the hypocrites among Muslims, Jews, Christians or whatever and you should understand that. Many Criminals get away with their Crimes and that is why there will be a DAY of JUDGMENT, to revenge the oppressed and all the truth will be clear. It is true that it is noble to stop some of the crimes but there are plenty that we could never stop and could never understand and that is why we should all submit to GOD who will take care of all that either in this life, maybe and surely in the Hereafter.

Brother, I hope you understand my point.

Michael
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 11:20 am
NewSoul wrote:
Moishe3rd,

1) Wasn't Hitler a Jew that converted to Christianity, who committed the worse of genocides against Jews and was going to eradicate all races from the face of Earth?
Do I blame Christianity? No
No one has ever said that Christianity of Judaism is the source of terrorism and evil.

2) Isn't Milosevic and General Mladic Catholics who committed one of the worse genocides ever happened in the planets against Bosnians who are Muslims?
Do I blame Catholic religion? No
No one have ever said that Catholic religion is the source of terrorism and evil

3) Who has ever used the most terrorizing and most powerful weaponry against civilians?
My country has used nuclear bombs to punish two cities that we blew up completely and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians that didn't have anything to do with the war. Were they fighting? Most of who died were just normal people living in peace with their families in their cities.
Do I say that my country is the most terrorizing country in the world? No one has ever said that the US is the source of terrorism and evil in the world.

4) SADDAM has gazed his own people. He is definitely an evil man.
Don't you see that his own people, Muslims or Shiaas are bringing him to Justice?

Why blaming Islam when we all know that hypocrites are in every religion. Why blaming Islam when its teachings are resumed in spreading Justice among people and submitting to GOD, the Most wise and Most powerful and that every single evil action anybody makes could take him to the severest Eternal punishment of GOD.

I advise you, Dear brother, to change your way of arguing with people. If you are of a Jewish faith I know it is hard for you to admit the truth ness of Islam but Islam is inviting you to read the Quran and since you believe in GOD, who is capable of everything, why don't you loose your arrogance and submit to him fully. Why don't you be open-minded and just with others when you know for sure that GOD is watching every single action you make? Why don't you fear what is gonna come after this short life? You know we will all die. After resurrection there will be a DAY of JUDGMENT and an eternal destination for all of us. What 100 years of Earthly life represent versus the Eternal life, a 0.0000000000000001% I am 100% sure it is much less than that. Is it worth it to put your life in stake and be away from the true purpose of this negligible life? Don't take me wrong, I am a Muslim and enjoying every second of my life until the Almighty GOD, the owner of my soul, take back his belonging.

As a Muslim I must believe in all the prophets and the holy books sent with them and must respect the people of the Book who are the Jews and the Christians so I am not gonna go far and accuse you, Jews or Christians for anything they have not done but as I Muslim I will only denounce the Criminals and the hypocrites among Muslims, Jews, Christians or whatever and you should understand that. Many Criminals get away with their Crimes and that is why there will be a DAY of JUDGMENT, to revenge the oppressed and all the truth will be clear. It is true that it is noble to stop some of the crimes but there are plenty that we could never stop and could never understand and that is why we should all submit to GOD who will take care of all that either in this life, maybe and surely in the Hereafter.

Brother, I hope you understand my point.

Michael

Wacked.
Demonstrating that once again, the ordinary, average, NewSoul, I Muslim is incapable of denouncing vicious, butchering, barbarism by Muslims without proclaiming that:
Hitler was a Jew;
the Serbians murder people too;
the US dropped atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki;
and, gotta love this one, the Iraqis took care of Saddam all by themselves...
Laughing Laughing Laughing
C'mon, confess - you're really a shill for the CIA... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Etruscia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 01:22 pm
I blame the catholic church for many things. hitler was a converted Jew? NEver head that one before . . .


Qkid. Think of the all the catholic priests who are accused and charged of molesting little boys. The catholic church is strictly against the molestation or harm of children. Does this mean they should not take any responsiblity for the occurences?

Of course not, but they shouldnt take all of it. THey should take some of it.
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 04:26 pm
Moishe,

I work for a federal agency. I am proud to be American but in the same time I am proud to be honest.

If you are happy the way you talk to others that you don't know and make all your accusations then it is your choice to be the way you are. Know that you are not gonna live for more than what GOD had choose for you and that it is so stupid to be injust, close-minded, hateful...etc.

I am so sorry for you that you are a hatefull person. Be nice and soft with others and if someone do bad to you , leave that to GOD. He will take care of the injustice.
Be patient and stop being hateful.

Michael
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 06:33 pm
NewSoul wrote:

Be nice and soft with others .....stop being hateful.



in short, be a Muslim right?
0 Replies
 
Ibn kumuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2005 09:17 pm
Moishe3rd wrote:
I'm only reading the tail end of the arguement here, so forgive me if this has been covered, but...
For the Islamic apologists (using "apologist" in the philosophical, not prejorative sense):
Please explain why the majority of Islam; or Islamic leaders; or Islamic journalists; or other major Islamic spokespeople do not condemn, categorically, without prevarication, without excuse - the murder of innocents in the name of Islam.
Why are there no fatwas on bin Laden the Putrefying? On Arafat the Rotting? On Zarqawi the Pig? Why?
Why are there not mullahs screaming from the top of every muzzein: "You who butcher innocents in the name of Allah are forever condemned to Eternal Damnation! You who massacre your brother, your sister, even unto the infidel are cast out, are forever cut off from Dar Islam!"
Why?


Salaam Alaikum

Well, there are many reasons why the so-called *leaders* and spokesmen (and women) equivocate on condemnation; explaining the reasonings behind that will take more time than I'm willing to offer. Personally, I don't think it is in every Muslim's criteria to make excuses for the intellectual ambiguity; not to mention, I think you exaggerate on the silence from the Muslim world. (Parvez Manzoor, Irshad Manji, and Ziauddin Sardar, to mention a few, serve as perfect locators of critics of current Muslim mentality) By the way: there actually was a fatwa laid upon the head of Bin Laden a few months ago by a Spanish Imam. Then again, what good does a Fatwa do to a renegade like Bin Laden?

--Ibn
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2005 07:12 am
Etruscia wrote:
I blame the catholic church for many things. hitler was a converted Jew? NEver head that one before . . .


Qkid. Think of the all the catholic priests who are accused and charged of molesting little boys. The catholic church is strictly against the molestation or harm of children. Does this mean they should not take any responsiblity for the occurences?

Of course not, but they shouldnt take all of it. THey should take some of it.


I dont how many times I have to say it again but you keep doing the same thing over and over again. You are saying the same thing but with using different words. And I showed you your own contradiction but u didnt show me how I was wrong, you simply said the same thing again about taking partial blame. Let me give you an example and maybe you will see your flaw.

Lets say you were one of my disciples (follower, not in the religious manner). And I taught you manners or behaviours. I taught you what to do and what not to do. I said loving, caring, respectfulness, humbleness, and controlling your temper are things you MUST DO. And i also said hating, jealousy, envy, lust, being gay, raping women, molesting minors, and killing a child are things you CANNOT DO. So now you know what I specifically stressed, it is clear and simple. But you killied a child and said I did it for my teacher. So according to your way of thinking, I should take partial blame for it even though I specifically taught you NOT TO do that action. Now does that make any sense my friend? No it doesnt!! Every human chooses his own actions.

If you can still make any sense of it, then please explain. And if you cannot, then just admit you were wrong and that Islam should not take any partial blame whatsoever for the people doing horrible acts in Islam's name.
0 Replies
 
Etruscia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2005 07:50 am
I think it does make sense for you then to take partial blame. People are the product of their experiences.

If you have a hundred disciples, and one blows up a building. It would seem to be a fluke, acceptable, and in no way would you deserve blame.

If you have a hundred disciples, (whom youve lived with and taught to all your life) and 5 blow up buildings, obviously, there has to be something in the culture which makes certain people extremely violent.

now i dont see how you cannot think the Catholic church should not take any of the blame for the priests who molested children.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2005 05:20 pm
I dont see how some people fail/are failing, to get Etrusia's point/drift.
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2005 02:45 pm
All I am gonna say at this point,

I conveyed the message. Afterall, I think there is a reason why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. I have seen many people reverting to Islam myself and they are white and black American people who grew up in this country, most of them were Christians.

Yusuf Estes, a very famous ex-preacher in Texas said that the first time he thought about knowing what Islam has to offer he went to a Mosque and saw two muslims arguing about a subject in Islam with heart he knew it was the truth and he knew he was going to be a Muslim.

I advise all of you to read the Quran. I am not asking for much. Do that for yourself to prove to yourself that you are convinced that Islam is not the truth. I have done that and guess what : I am a Muslim now.

I am going to leave this Forum since I have to spend more time learning my new faith. I wish all of you the best. Thank you again for having me here.

For the Hindus, what are you worshipping ? Why don't you get rid of your idols and worship the only Creator, GOD ? You make idols from materials provided by GOD then you say that it represent GOD ? what a confusion!!!! Well nobody can make or by GOD from stores !!!!


Peace,

Michael
0 Replies
 
Etruscia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2005 03:04 pm
Wow . . . rampant Islamic evangelicism. I dont know how its Michael has any authority to say that what the Hindus worship is any less a "GOD" than what Muslim worships . . .
0 Replies
 
Ibn kumuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2005 04:04 pm
Etruscia wrote:
I think it does make sense for you then to take partial blame. People are the product of their experiences.

If you have a hundred disciples, and one blows up a building. It would seem to be a fluke, acceptable, and in no way would you deserve blame.

If you have a hundred disciples, (whom youve lived with and taught to all your life) and 5 blow up buildings, obviously, there has to be something in the culture which makes certain people extremely violent.

now i dont see how you cannot think the Catholic church should not take any of the blame for the priests who molested children.


It makes zero sense to place culpable blame on someone who (1) does not claim responsibility, and (2) who has no direct (or indirect) involvement. I don't think your examples--beyond circularity--highlight your point; in fact, your examples run contrary to your argument. Moreover, a couple of posts ago you hinted at the point that Islam is against terrorism. Fair enough; if Islam is against terrorism, I don't see how Muslims are in some way held partially responsible. This runs counter-intuitive the fact that Islam is against terrorism. Responsibility requires full knowledge of the action as well as direct/indirect involvement. Islam, by your own admission, has is involved in neither. To give one example, our (USA) involvement in Iraq does not make us in any way, shape, or form responsible for what happened at Abu Gharib. The perfidious acts betray our principles--not to mention the Geneva Convention that we are currently signed to. From this example, rather similar to yours, I don't see how you deduce *responsibility* therefore demanding an apology *for* that action. If Islam were involved, your argument would be cogent.

--Ibn
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2005 08:13 pm
NewSoul wrote:


I advise all of you to read the Quran. I am not asking for much. Do that for yourself to prove to yourself that you are convinced that Islam is not the truth.


thanks, but no thanks.

NewSoul wrote:


For the Hindus, what are you worshipping ? Why don't you get rid of your idols and worship the only Creator, GOD ? You make idols from materials provided by GOD then you say that it represent GOD ? what a confusion!!!! Well nobody can make or bUy GOD from stores !!!!



ourselves. thats what we worship.

and its not for you to suggest what we should do. so keep your evengelist ideas in the nether regions of your torso.

meanwhile why dont you stop putting AK -47's to religious use ??
0 Replies
 
anoopmohd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:51 am
Islam Religion of peace
Islam is a religion of peace it diddnt put any body in fornt ot AK-47 and ask then to change the religion......and never it for any religious use....


Quote:
meanwhile why dont you stop putting AK -47's to religious use ??
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 04:25 am
Re: Islam Religion of peace
anoopmohd wrote:
Islam is a religion of peace it diddnt put any body in fornt ot AK-47 and ask then to change the religion......and never it for any religious use....


Quote:
meanwhile why dont you stop putting AK -47's to religious use ??


ak - 47's werent invented back when those barbarian hordes invaded india, spain, constantinopole etc.

they had high quality sabres, spears, swords, clubs etc though.


and the "religion of peace" is there for all to see, now in the days of cnn, bbc and satellite t.v.................... which unfortunately were not present back then... when they are forcing people to change their religion by the sword.. left right and centre... i mean look at zorastrian iran for example, ... when they were razing more temples down than all the buildings of NYC put together.. not just WTC... which i another fine example when islam vindicated just how much a "religion" of peace it is, without using a single AK-47....


the main thing for you to note here is whether me or someone else points this out on some internet forum or not, - HISTORY will never fail to list the attrocities inflicted by islam on all and sundry from day 1... and thats whether you have the spine to accept it or not.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 05:00 am
brahmin wrote:
ak - 47's werent invented back when those barbarian hordes invaded india, spain, constantinopole etc.

they had high quality sabres, spears, swords, clubs etc though.


and the "religion of peace" is there for all to see, now in the days of cnn, bbc and satellite t.v.................... which unfortunately were not present back then... when they are forcing people to change their religion by the sword.. left right and centre... i mean look at zorastrian iran for example, ... when they were razing more temples down than all the buildings of NYC put together.. not just WTC... which i another fine example when islam vindicated just how much a "religion" of peace it is, without using a single AK-47....


the main thing for you to note here is whether me or someone else points this out on some internet forum or not, - HISTORY will never fail to list the attrocities inflicted by islam on all and sundry from day 1... and thats whether you have the spine to accept it or not.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 05:07 am
your statement can be answered through the following word -

BOLLOCKS !!


and yes the sword of osama bin laden's (and his ilk's) intellect is doing the world a major favour.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:47 am
Hey muslim 1,
Nice to see another apologist...
So, I asks ya now; I'm wantin' ya t' tell me; I'm willin' ya t' tell me; I'm waitin' fer ya t' tell me:
How is it that the majority of Islam; or your Islamic leaders; or your Islamic journalists; or any of your other major Islamic spokespeople do not condemn, categorically, without prevarication, without excuse - the murder of innocents in the name of Islam?
Just bein' curious, I am...
Why is it that yer people there are not screamin' about bin Laden the Putrefyin'; or Arafat the Rottin'; or Zarqawi the Pig; or Saddam the Butcher? Why is there that yer people canna seem to codemn these nasty folk? Eh?

What di ya think this says about your religion of Peace?
Eh?
0 Replies
 
Etruscia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:54 am
Yeah, isnt the figure like 65% of Pakistanians (a country which is overwhelmingly muslim) hold a favourable view of Osama bin Laden. A country of 162 million people, with 97% Muslim population, sees bin Laden favourably.

This doesnt speak volumes about certain muslim people?

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html
0 Replies
 
 

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