Shazzer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2005 11:01 am
Quote:
Would you mind proving your statement? (Please do not give me examples of women who are paid to say wrong things about Islam)


I admit that my knowledge concerning Islam's rules is very limited. That was one incentive to read this thread. While in university, I spoke with muslim women and also attended a few discussion groups with people from various religions, including muslim women. Oftentimes, they would mention that one of the reason's they enjoyed living in the States was that they could practice their religion without the negative pressure from muslim men. The way I interpreted it was that they could choose to be pious without fear of scrutiny that could lead to negative outcomes as they went about their daily lives. I'm sure they felt some pressure, probably both positive and negative, from other muslims in their community to follow Islam faithfully. Now, I know this was their opinion at the time. It could have changed and was interpreted by me. But I hesitate to assert that these women felt the need to slander their belief system for ulterior motives. I thought they were just adding to the larger discussion at hand (it was a 'women in religion' discussion).

I also look to first-person accounts in book form, such as Reading Lolita. You could argue that Ms. Nafisi was paid to say wrongs things, but I wouldn't be so quick to categorize her in that light. The book is not an investigation into the supposed 'evils' of Islam itself as much as an examination of literature in the context of a revolutionary Iran. You could maybe argue that it investigates the negative aspects of the perversion of Islam. But again, since I am not fluent in the your holy works, this is speculation.

Quote:
Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation.


I emphatically disagree. This is a rapist's logic. What about in the Victorian era when women wore those complicated get-ups with hoops and corsets? Rape still happened then, right? If a man wants to rape you or 'tease' you, he will. It is completely the fault of the man. Completely. It goes back to the thought that a man can't control himself. I think this degrades men, and truthfully, is ridiculous. I control myself around attractive men all the time. You don't hear me blaming men for being so good-looking. :wink:

Quote:
In fact, Western talk of women's liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honor.


I disagree. I am a liberated woman, yet I am not remotely promiscuous. I don't exploit my body; and my soul. . .well, I don't know what it wouldn't have been like w/out women's lib, but I can tell you that I have confidence that my worth comes from my intelligence and my actions, not my ability to reproduce. I do feel equal to the men in my life. In that way, I have been uplifted.

Do you agree that women need chaperones to be moral? How about dating a man before marriage just to see if you get along? I could concede a veil (so long as a woman chooses to wear it), but do you feel a burqa is necessary? What would you speculate, was the Taliban's scriptural justification for keeping women indoors or prohibiting them from working? Would you mind telling me what you think of this excerpt in relation to women's equality:

"Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' " Bukhari 7.62.125

Quote:
I think the only solution to this is to return to the original teachings of Islam (The Holy Qur'an and the tradition of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)) where women is so honored and glorified.


Do you think this is possible to achieve in this global society peacefully?

Thanks for your thoughts.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2005 07:34 am
Shazzer wrote:
This is a rapist's logic. What about in the Victorian era when women wore those complicated get-ups with hoops and corsets? Rape still happened then, right? If a man wants to rape you or 'tease' you, he will. It is completely the fault of the man. Completely. It goes back to the thought that a man can't control himself. I think this degrades men, and truthfully, is ridiculous. I control myself around attractive men all the time. You don't hear me blaming men for being so good-looking.

With all my due respect, I disagree. Certainly, the man has a share of responsibility in whether a rape happens or not. But, the woman who exposes her body is the major factor.
Indeed, in countries where women uncovers her body, the rape rate is the highest. Here is a link, with statistics mainly from the US Department of Justice:
American Rape Statistics

Shazzer wrote:
Do you agree that women need chaperones to be moral?

No. A women (as well as a man) needs to follow the guidance of her Creator.
Allah gave to the women an intelligence so that they can reach the truth alone without the help of anyone.

Shazzer wrote:
How about dating a man before marriage just to see if you get along?

The halal (Islamic lawful) dating is a practice gaining much popularity in the West Muslim community. Halal dating is the first cousin of arranged marriage, with young people finding their own mates--within the guidelines of Islam--if their parents are unable to arrange marriages for them. Because the Holy Qur'an advocates equality between the sexes, it does not permit premarital sex--since all the negative consequences fall upon the woman, including pregnancy, the social stigma, and the raising of the child. Premarital sex is also forbidden for other reasons, including learning to discipline oneself and practice self-control. Under Islam, when a man has sex with a woman to whom he is not married, he is being disrespectful of her, whether she is consensually participating or not. So young Muslims who engage in halal dating seek a commitment first and are vigilant about staying true to their religion.

Shazzer wrote:
I could concede a veil (so long as a woman chooses to wear it), but do you feel a burqa is necessary?

In fact, there is a difference among the scholars on the issue of Hijaab. Some of them say that a woman must cover all her body while the others allow her to show her face and the hands upto the wrist.

Shazzer wrote:
What would you speculate, was the Taliban's scriptural justification for keeping women indoors or prohibiting them from working?

In my very limited knowledge, there's nothing which prevents women from working as long as:
- She has an urgent financial need to do that.
- This work preserves her chastity and is compatible with her physical capabilities.
Yet the main task of a woman in Islam lies inside her house. By upbringing her children, she's the most important element and the real builder of the society. I think that's the reason why our brothers in Islam, the Talibans, emphasized the vital role of women at home, which helped keep her chastity, dignity and honor.

Shazzer wrote:
Would you mind telling me what you think of this excerpt in relation to women's equality:

Gladly. Before I comment, what you described as an "excerpt" is in fact a hadith, a saying of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

Shazzer wrote:
"Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women."

Imagine a classroom with 100 students. Suppose 40 of them fail to pass a math exam. If out of those 40, 21 are girls and 19 are boys, the teacher can very well say that the majority of those who failed are females and he's saying the truth.

Shazzer wrote:
The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' "


This particular hadith describes the characteristics of some ungrateful women. But you have ignored hundreds of Ahadiths (sayings of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him) which glorify women.
Do you know that the first martyr in Islam was not a man, but a woman (Sumayyah may Allah be pleased with her)? Do you know that the first one who helped prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in his noble mission and believed in his message was not a man, but a woman (Khadijah peace be upon her)? What about Aichah (May Allah be pleased with her), who was the most knowledgeable person after the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)?

Shazzer wrote:
Do you think this is possible to achieve in this global society peacefully?

I think so. While a part of the new generation in 'Islamic' countries is far from Islam, many youths (girls and boys) are, all Praise to Allah, following to the letter the teachings of our religion.
You can also notice, Shazzer, that Islam is growing fast in Europe and North america.
I recently came across an article from Swissinfo which shows how 30000 swiss women reverted to Islam. The article can be found here:
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=106&sid=5416761

One may ask: what makes a 'liberated' (tu use your word) woman living in a peaceful and rich country, what makes her revert to a religion which you described as having "such a poor reputation regarding its treatment of women? "


Shazzer wrote:
I admit that my knowledge concerning Islam's rules is very limited.

and
Shazzer wrote:
But again, since I am not fluent in the your holy works, this is speculation.

What I would advise you Shazzer, is to learn about Islam from its authentic sources and from websites and books that present Islam correctly.

And Allah knows best.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Aug, 2005 10:48 pm
brahmin wrote:


Quote:

John Walker Lindh

"Dumb-ass" may be a subjective term, but it's difficult to think of any better way to describe John Walker Lindh, the American Taliban.

Lindh grew up affluent, in the rolling, mellow hills of Marin County, .
.
.
.
Lindh entered a guilty plea and was sentenced to 20 years in prison. In exchange for his plea, the more serious charges (such as conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals) were dropped, which means that with time off for good behavior, he'll be out in about 17 years.






"That American Taliban kid Johnny Walker was indicted today. Ten counts of terrorism. He could get 5 life sentences. In Taliban terms, that's 360 virgins."

-Jay Leno
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Aug, 2005 05:21 pm
I have a question for Muslims. If the Koran is the perfect word of God, why has it changed from the earliest texts?
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 07:47 pm
Steve,

What do you mean by the text being changed? Are you saying that you can find many different Qur'ans where the arabic words are completely different from each other giving totally different meanings? Or do you mean there are different Qur'ans because they are written in different dialects? If you are talking about the 1st, then please show me an example. If you are talking about the latter, then you really dont have an argument. Is that fair? Take care bro.
0 Replies
 
javi
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Aug, 2005 08:29 pm
how come men....
how come only women have to cover up so as not to "excite" men?
How come men don't cover up too, aren't they able to excite women too?
As far as I know, men dont wear burqas.

and, why do women have to be the ones that play the up-bringing role? I think men are just as capable as women in that matter, and its really clear that women are as smart as men so they can work too.
0 Replies
 
Shazzer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Aug, 2005 03:56 pm
Welcome to a2k, javi.

I totally agree with you. Keep the good questions coming. . . :wink:
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:22 pm
deleted as I cant be bothered
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 12:45 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

If it was some sort of veiled threat then I will have you thrown off a2k.


did you by any chance intend a pun on veil Wink
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 01:03 pm
Steve,

Take your pick. Laughing

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 07:52 am
Steve,

No man, ofcourse it wasnt a threat. It was a salutation, thats it. No veiled messages here. I honestly "good wishes". I am sorry but this was so funny when I first read it. Take care bro. LoL.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 12:32 pm
Why, if Mohammed's every word and deed were recorded by 45 scribes on pieces of papyrus, bone, stone and pottery does not one single artefect remain?

Once they had written up the Koran as a single book, did they throw away the orginal sources?

Did they treat the Original Words of God as given to Mohammed as so much garbage?

Or was it just a myth?
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Aug, 2005 11:48 am
Hello javi and welcome to the forum,

javi wrote:
how come only women have to cover up so as not to "excite" men?
How come men don't cover up too, aren't they able to excite women too?
"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
[Holy Qur'an 24:30]
The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

javi wrote:
why do women have to be the ones that play the up-bringing role?

Because the mother has the natural kindness, compassion and love the baby or the child requires.
Certainly, the father has also a role to play in up-bringing the children. Yet, the Mom is the main element here.

javi wrote:
and its really clear that women are as smart as men so they can work too

Not all the jobs, especially those which require physical effort. Men are generally stronger (physically) than women. In athletics, swimming, weight lifting... you will not find a single world record in the women's competitions better than men's.

In Islam, we believe in equality between sexes, not identity. God (Allah in Arabic) created every gender for a specific role.


mesquite,

Here's what Bro means:
"The common colloquial word bro, short for 'brother', describes a close friend, comrade, or pal. As a form of address, used to imply a sense of solidarity, and connection with the person being spoken to. "
From the Wikipedia Encyclopedia.


Steve,

Steve wrote:
I have a question for Muslims. If the Koran is the perfect word of God, why has it changed from the earliest texts?

and
Steve wrote:
Why, if Mohammed's every word and deed were recorded by 45 scribes on pieces of papyrus, bone, stone and pottery does not one single artefect remain?
Once they had written up the Koran as a single book, did they throw away the orginal sources?
Did they treat the Original Words of God as given to Mohammed as so much garbage?
Or was it just a myth?


Brother QKid (May Allah reward him) has already answered you. Here's what he posted:
QKid wrote:
What do you mean by the text being changed? Are you saying that you can find many different Qur'ans where the arabic words are completely different from each other giving totally different meanings? Or do you mean there are different Qur'ans because they are written in different dialects? If you are talking about the 1st, then please show me an example. If you are talking about the latter, then you really dont have an argument

And here is an additional link to know that the holy Qur'an we have today is the same revealed 1400 years ago:

Today's Qur'an is the same as the one revealed 1400 years ago

And Allah knows best.
0 Replies
 
JAMESDG
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2005 04:53 pm
I hope that this does no get any body mad but didn't the curan show up after the bible clearly stated that the jews were not Gods chosen people any more. The bible was written before the curan and the bible also says that it is complete nothing to be added or taken away so if the bible is complete why would God right to people again? He would not as a matter of fact the bible says that when that wich is complete arrives that wich is parcel will be done away with. So there would be no more gifts of holey spirit from god to do miracles or to right other God inspired books to direct his people. If I was Gods chosen people at one time and my privilege got taken away I would not make a book up I would humble my self and change my life to fit in Gods new world. The Jewish people would not except all the teachings of Jesus, as a matter of fact Jesus was put to death by the Jews, mainly the religious leaders that wanted to live and worship God the way they wanted to not the way God wants us to. Satin will come as an angle of light and will miss lead many he will mix truth will the lie.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 10:59 am
JAMESDG wrote:
I hope that this does no get any body mad but didn't the curan show up after the bible clearly stated that the jews were not Gods chosen people any more. The bible was written before the curan and the bible also says that it is complete nothing to be added or taken away so if the bible is complete why would God right to people again?


A similar question can be found here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/a2k-post1491770.html&highlight=#1491770

Thank you for your question James.
0 Replies
 
stford
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Aug, 2005 07:00 pm
NewSoul what do you think of Ibn Taymiyyah? What was his mistakes. I need help.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2005 06:54 pm
stford wrote:
what do you think of Ibn Taymiyyah?

The Sheikh of Islam Ibn Taymiyyah is one the greatest scholar of our religion. He rose the flag of the belief and understanding of Islam in his time, at a time when innovation, misguidance, and corruption were widespread.
Due to ibn Taymiyyah's firm stance against all that was false and corrupt he earned the envy and hatred of all those that he opposed, who were many, and as such had many lies heaped around him.
He authored several valuable books that are still valid and useful today.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 08:30 pm
muslim1 wrote:
We are so proud of how women in Islam are dressed.
Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur'an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested
Why does it not occur to you that the problem here is not how Muslim women dress, but how Muslim men behave?

Why do you suppose that Muslim men are so lacking in self-control that the sight of an exposed leg would inflame them, while most Western men are able to behave appropriately even when confronted with beaches full of bikini-clad young ladies?

Quote:
Quote:
Female companions await those who enter the Gardens of Eden on the Day of Reckoning.

All the people of the Paradise will be married, all Praise be to Allah.

Quote:
Allah will give those in the Garden women of modest gaze whom neither man nor jinn have touched before them.

Absolutely. All Praise be to Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Just out of curiousity, will virile male companions be provided for devout Muslim women in Paradise, whose husbands are busy flirting with virgins?

Quote:

Millions of women now have careers, independence, and control of their own lives. It was degradation to treat women as household slaves who could be abused with impunity by their fathers/husbands, denied the right to vote, and given 3 basic career choices: wife, prostitute, or spinster. When I was a girl the choices had expanded to include teacher, nurse, secretary, or maid. Thanks to women's liberation I was able to get a degree in engineering and have an honorable and stimulating career as well as raising a family.

Women who wish to exploit their bodies have just as much right to do so as men who sell their bodies to the highest bidder to be exploited in sports arenas, or politicians who sell their souls.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 09:56 pm
In a way I understand why Muslims would find Western women's dress to be outrageous and degrading - sometimes it is. Often it is. The West is the merely a Twin: going the opposite extreme. However, I would much prefer to have the choices that West presents (as a woman). If I choose to wear a burka here (is that the correct name for that garment?), I can do so. If I choose to wear a bra and a skirt, I can do that as well.

I find both extremes to be ...well, extremes.

A question:

What are the teaching in regards to raising children? Is there a strict code on 'how to raise a good child'?

I know I will be referred to scripture, but that's okay. I have a hard time understanding the Koran by myself; it is like wading through a different language. Any info would be appreciated.

thank you
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 10:21 am
Well said Terry. I read your post(s) and agreed with you, thinking you were (forgive me) a man.

Now I know you are a woman professional engineer, I have even more respect for your take on these issues.

Islam imo is a backward looking religion which oppresses women and is cruel to children and animals. It has held society back wherever it has gained supremacy.

It is time to fight bad ideas with better ideas. We have tolerated the intolerant for too long.
0 Replies
 
 

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