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N. Korea has nuclear missile capability to hit US territory

 
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 11:10 pm
Ten years from now, we'll have FAR bigger things to worry about than nuclear weapons.

We will wish very fervently that we had spent this time and billion$ investing in the detection and rapid management of synthetic viruses, nano-replication, and mission-targetted genetic modification.

Nuclear threats are tiny, simple, and easy compared to the newer tools that one single individual can (and will) develop and carry in a suitcase for less than $50,000. We can buy all the aircraft carriers and ICBM's that we want. They can do absolutely nothing against one, determined individual.

Refer to "Why the future doesn't need us.", a very old (April 2000) article by Bill Joy.




----------
A lunatic is anybody who we don't understand.
If we ignore people then everyone automatically becomes a lunatic in our eyes.
If we understand people's situations, and assist them in acheiving their basic needs, then almost no one is a lunatic.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 May, 2005 11:38 pm
CodeBorg wrote:
Ten years from now, we'll have FAR bigger things to worry about than nuclear weapons.

We will wish very fervently that we had spent this time and billion$ investing in the detection and rapid management of synthetic viruses, nano-replication, and mission-targetted genetic modification.

Nuclear threats are tiny, simple, and easy compared to the newer tools that one single individual can (and will) develop and carry in a suitcase for less than $50,000. We can buy all the aircraft carriers and ICBM's that we want. They can do absolutely nothing against one, determined individual.

Refer to "Why the future doesn't need us.", a very old (April 2000) article by Bill Joy.

What you are really saying, and I agree totally, is that what we are experiencing now is just the very leading edge of the problem caused by the existence of relatively accessible WMD. As bad as it is now it will become worse as science and technology advance. The principles that apply now will also apply then, but the scenarios will be grimmer. I wouldn't underestimate the danger of suitcase nukes, though.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 12:45 am
"We've snuffed out innocent lives in numbers that insurgents and terrorists could only dream of. But we avert our eyes. We bury our heads in the sand and turn a blind eye to our moral cowardice, thus pulling off the amazing feat of being ostriches and chickens all at once.

"We owe this marvel of ornithology to the inexorable fragility of human illusions. To quote James Carroll, "we avert our eyes because the war is a moral abyss. If we dare to look, as Nietzsche said, the abyss stares back." George Bush, the philosopher, has updated Berkeley's riddle: Do Iraqi children scream when the bombs fall if there is no one in the White House to hear them?" -- Bernard Chazelle, Princeton University
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 07:00 am
parados wrote:

...So you are admitting that your claim of one million people was a false claim or not? I can't tell from this statement...

I think that one single bioweapon could could kill a million or more people, and, although one single atomic bomb could kill a million or more people, especially if deaths during the immediate aftermath are included, the type of bomb Hussein likely would have come up with in the short term would more likely have a lethality in the one third to one half million range. So, yes, I still think a million people with one WMD is possible, although I have slightly downgraded my evaluation of the damage an Iraqi nuke would likely have done.

However, my original point would have been made just as well if I had said one WMD = a quarter million, and there is nothing really stopping an attack with two or three WMD. My original point was that these weapons kill on such a huge scale that even the chance that someone like Hussein might have them has to be taken dreadfully seriously.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 08:02 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
parados wrote:

...So you are admitting that your claim of one million people was a false claim or not? I can't tell from this statement...

I think that one single bioweapon could could kill a million or more people, and, although one single atomic bomb could kill a million or more people, especially if deaths during the immediate aftermath are included, the type of bomb Hussein likely would have come up with in the short term would more likely have a lethality in the one third to one half million range. So, yes, I still think a million people with one WMD is possible, although I have slightly downgraded my evaluation of the damage an Iraqi nuke would likely have done.

However, my original point would have been made just as well if I had said one WMD = a quarter million, and there is nothing really stopping an attack with two or three WMD. My original point was that these weapons kill on such a huge scale that even the chance that someone like Hussein might have them has to be taken dreadfully seriously.

We both agree then. WMD could kill people. We just disagree on how many from a given attack. No problem. Doesn't solve the reason for attacking Iraq.

Because WMD can kill people doesn't provide enough of a reason for attacking Iraq. You keep claiming we have to look at what was known then. Let's do that.

What evidence do you have that Saddam had those weapons?
What evidence do you have that he would have used those weapons?
What evidence do you have that invading made it less likely for him to use those weapons?
If your express purpose was to keep any weapons Saddam might have had out of the hands of terrorists then wouldn't the PRUDENT plan been to find those weapons BEFORE we invaded to make sure they couldn't be secreted out of the country and given to terrorists?

The invasion was ill planned as to any possible adverse consequences of the action. The invasion was planned so it HAD to fail in meeting its stated goal of making sure WMD didn't get into the hands of terrorists.

If we assume that Saddam had WMD and had the intentions of giving them to terrorists then the invasion as carried out was NOT the best way to solve the problem. It leads me to think that 1. It was known that Saddam wasn't the threat claimed, or 2. the people planning this were completely inept.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 01:59 pm
If you'll read the article I brought (somewhere back in there...) Candidate Bush said he intended to share missile deterrent capability with our allies and the Soviets--to prove he didn't want to be holding all the sparkly toys.

If we share it, it makes nukes obselete.

Then, it seems on to the virus doomsday scenario...

But, OE, we aren't the same as Russia, and you should admit it.

Which would YOU prefer to have all the toys? Us or Russia? Or Germany?

Honestly?

(PS--For someone who was thought to be hated, Tony Blair--back in the saddle. Good news!)
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 10:43 pm
Lash wrote:
If you'll read the article I brought (somewhere back in there...) Candidate Bush said he intended to share missile deterrent capability with our allies and the Soviets--to prove he didn't want to be holding all the sparkly toys.

If we share it, it makes nukes obselete.

Then, it seems on to the virus doomsday scenario...

But, OE, we aren't the same as Russia, and you should admit it.

Which would YOU prefer to have all the toys? Us or Russia? Or Germany?

Honestly?

(PS--For someone who was thought to be hated, Tony Blair--back in the saddle. Good news!)


Honestly? Not Germany.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 May, 2005 11:43 pm
Lash wrote:
If you'll read the article I brought (somewhere back in there...) Candidate Bush said he intended to share missile deterrent capability with our allies and the Soviets--to prove he didn't want to be holding all the sparkly toys.

If we share it, it makes nukes obselete.

Then, it seems on to the virus doomsday scenario...

But, OE, we aren't the same as Russia, and you should admit it.

Which would YOU prefer to have all the toys? Us or Russia? Or Germany?

Honestly?

(PS--For someone who was thought to be hated, Tony Blair--back in the saddle. Good news!)


yours is warmed over ronald reagan altzheimer's stuff.

so you are saying we should spend HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS of tax payer money for this technology, and YOU WANT TO GIVE IT AWAY TO OTHER NATIONS?

good thinking there. i especially like how you want to use tax payer money to produce a technology that you give away for free. maybe we could use those HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to find a cheap limitless energy source instead of spending money on castle walls in the sky.

it would be a whole hell of a lot cheaper and safer if we just destroyed nuclear weapons and had a system where all of the technolgies were monitored.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 01:59 am
kuvasz wrote:
Lash wrote:
If you'll read the article I brought (somewhere back in there...) Candidate Bush said he intended to share missile deterrent capability with our allies and the Soviets--to prove he didn't want to be holding all the sparkly toys.

If we share it, it makes nukes obselete.

Then, it seems on to the virus doomsday scenario...

But, OE, we aren't the same as Russia, and you should admit it.

Which would YOU prefer to have all the toys? Us or Russia? Or Germany?

Honestly?

(PS--For someone who was thought to be hated, Tony Blair--back in the saddle. Good news!)


yours is warmed over ronald reagan altzheimer's stuff.

Gosh kuvasz, even Liberals suffer from Althzheimers. Pretty insensitive of you.

so you are saying we should spend HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS of tax payer money for this technology, and YOU WANT TO GIVE IT AWAY TO OTHER NATIONS?

YES THAT IS WHAT SHE IS SAYING!

If one accepts the argument that by providing all nations with the means to deter nuclear attacks, the whole world is made safer, then one might be expected to see the billions spent as a pretty good investment.

Geez, I thought you One World Order, Kofi Annan Lovers would appreciate an effort to share valuable technology with our fellow riders on the blue marble that is the earth.


good thinking there. i especially like how you want to use tax payer money to produce a technology that you give away for free. maybe we could use those HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to find a cheap limitless energy source instead of spending money on castle walls in the sky.

Awfully capitalist of you kuv. It's really too easy to point out that an extension of your argument is that should we someday develop a cure for cancer (no, let's make it AIDS - that seems to reliably pluck the heartstrings of Liberals) we would be fools to GIVE IT AWAY FOR FREE! Think of the bucks we could make on Africa alone!

it would be a whole hell of a lot cheaper and safer if we just destroyed nuclear weapons and had a system where all of the technologies were monitored.

Classic! Cheaper and safer and morally superior if we unilaterally destroy our nukes. After all, once Big Bad Amerika gives up its nukes, why would any other country have a reason to stockpile them? Appreciating that you are a rationalistic devotee of facts and figures, I hesitate to question you on how you know that a "system" to "monitor" all offensive weapons would so cheap. If I didn't know you were the personification of rationalism, and therefore that you would not render a comment that did not rest on a rock solid foundation of scientific proof, I might even question whether or not such a "system" is even remotely possible.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 07:09 am
kuvasz--

I thought you were for a nuke free world?

The ONLY way to accomplish this is to make them obselete. I'm sure even liberals understand that.

Try not to spend all your energy disagreeing with my opinion--and just give it a few minutes' thought.

(Hint-- You can read Finn's post again, too)

Like Finn, I truly can't believe you would disagree with sharing the shield. I have reservations about doing it--but it is a definitive trust-inducing gesture.

With people like AQ Khan helping every bastard that crawls out from under a rock to develop nuclear capabilities, disarming the decent countries will only make them victim to the rogues. (Is this your goal?)
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 07:42 am
Steps to a nuke free world would include, in the eyes of many people:

- Not developing new nukes (like the US is planning to do)
- Not withdrawing from an ABM treaty (which the US has done)
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 07:52 am
The concept of a Nuke free world is a pipe dream. Once Pandora's box has been opened it can never be closed. The best than be hoped for now is equilibrium to keep them from being used to destroy this planet.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 08:17 am
Lash wrote:
kuvasz--

I thought you were for a nuke free world?

The ONLY way to accomplish this is to make them obselete. I'm sure even liberals understand that.

Try not to spend all your energy disagreeing with my opinion--and just give it a few minutes' thought.

(Hint-- You can read Finn's post again, too)

Like Finn, I truly can't believe you would disagree with sharing the shield. I have reservations about doing it--but it is a definitive trust-inducing gesture.

With people like AQ Khan helping every bastard that crawls out from under a rock to develop nuclear capabilities, disarming the decent countries will only make them victim to the rogues. (Is this your goal?)


are you retarded?

otherwise how could one ask such a question had you red what i said

Quote:
it would be a whole hell of a lot cheaper and safer if we just destroyed nuclear weapons and had a system where all of the technolgies were monitored.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 08:20 am
Exactly. I think the question is: why spend hundreds of billions of dollars on a system that, when (if) working, will

- a) not eliminate the threat of a nuke exploding in an American city, but just eliminate the threat that a nuke could be delivered missilewise

- b) only furthers the goal of rendering the States, in a symmetrical attack, immune from retaliation, while maintaining all the first strike capabilities.

In the mid-60s, when the US where working on a nationwide ABM system, it grew increasingly clear that if the system did work, then the Soviets best course of action was to immediately launch an attack on the US before the system became operational. I don't see why this wouldn't apply to China, for example.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 08:23 am
And, as an afterthought: When did Bush announce the US would work on a missile defense shield? When did North Korea announce it would resume work on its nuclear missile programm?
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 09:24 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Gosh kuvasz, even Liberals suffer from Althzheimers. Pretty insensitive of you.


Not really, it takes someone nearly brain dead to think of such a thing as giving your enemy the keys to your castle. Btw: Reagan was the one who stated he wanted to give away the Star Wars technology to the Soviets. It was pure political posturing intended to entice the Democrats in Congress who were against spending the money on it to support the program.

What would your response have been had Clinton offered to give it away to the Chinese? You folks on the right are still screaming about Clinton being a traitor for allowing the private sector to transfer electronic technologies to the Chinese. Technology by the way which was used to allow the Chinese to send into space payloads for US communications satellites.

So, its still standard stuff from you folks. You think the sun shines out the a$$hole of anyone who is a Republican and believe any crazy thing they say is okay without thinking clearly about it

I said:
Quote:
so you are saying we should spend HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of BILLIONS OF DOLLARS of tax payer money for this technology, and YOU WANT TO GIVE IT AWAY TO OTHER NATIONS?


Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
YES THAT IS WHAT SHE IS SAYING!

If one accepts the argument that by providing all nations with the means to deter nuclear attacks, the whole world is made safer, then one might be expected to see the billions spent as a pretty good investment.


It is not necessary to use the flight of a missile to deliver a nuke.

Similarly, it is analogous to the idea that the best protection against bullets would not be to ban guns but for everyone to wear a bulletproof vest.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Geez, I thought you One World Order, Kofi Annan Lovers would appreciate an effort to share valuable technology with our fellow riders on the blue marble that is the earth.


You should remember this when you accuse me of being innervate UN supporter. I am an America-firster. Apparently, neither you nor Lash is.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Awfully capitalist of you kuv. It's really too easy to point out that an extension of your argument is that should we someday develop a cure for cancer (no, let's make it AIDS - that seems to reliably pluck the heartstrings of Liberals) we would be fools to GIVE IT AWAY FOR FREE! Think of the bucks we could make on Africa alone!


Maybe you forgot, I am a capitalist, (its in my profile) owing my own company and all. And a cheap renewable energy source has profound world-wide implications, a cure for a disease, even one as bad as AIDS is not comparable to the global societal watershed a new clean energy source would have. It would re-invent the world. 100 years ago no one knew what they could do with an electron, now our society is based upon its use.

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Classic! Cheaper and safer and morally superior if we unilaterally destroy our nukes. After all, once Big Bad Amerika gives up its nukes, why would any other country have a reason to stockpile them? Appreciating that you are a rationalistic devotee of facts and figures, I hesitate to question you on how you know that a "system" to "monitor" all offensive weapons would so cheap. If I didn't know you were the personification of rationalism, and therefore that you would not render a comment that did not rest on a rock solid foundation of scientific proof, I might even question whether or not such a "system" is even remotely possible.


I notice you failed to make it thru even one post without setting up a straw man argument to knock down.

If you are going to accuse me of unilateral disarmament, you have to provide proof that I advocated it. So where is your proof? That I used the term "we?" You are confused. The "we" referred to the human race.

The precursors to such programs are already being developed and implemented in a number of countries and is referred to as the IAEA. It worked well in Iraq it seems.

On an aside, the proposal to give away a missile shield so that everyone would have one, thereby making the world safe from the technologies that produce nuclear tipped missiles is pretty stupid. It fails to address the issue of the weapons and their radioactive material in the first place, which would still exist, and which as the ex-Soviet Union nuclear and missile technologies have shown can be bartered on the black market.

Again, one need not attach a nuke to a missile. It can be transported in a variety of ways and you would still have the potential for nuclear blackmail. But you would have spent hundreds of billions of dollars on something that can not defend you from alternative methods of delivering the nuke.

If you would glance over your shoulder at the history of warfare, you would see that every time someone invents a defense for a weapon, someone else figures out how to overcome the defense. Past will once again be prologue with any Star Wars defense.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 09:30 am
kuvasz wrote:
Similarly, it is analogous to the idea that the best protection against bullets would not be to ban guns but for everyone to wear a bulletproof vest.


That's a remarkable analogy, kuvasz.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 May, 2005 12:13 pm
kuvasz wrote:
Lash wrote:
kuvasz--

I thought you were for a nuke free world?

The ONLY way to accomplish this is to make them obselete. I'm sure even liberals understand that.

Try not to spend all your energy disagreeing with my opinion--and just give it a few minutes' thought.

(Hint-- You can read Finn's post again, too)

Like Finn, I truly can't believe you would disagree with sharing the shield. I have reservations about doing it--but it is a definitive trust-inducing gesture.

With people like AQ Khan helping every bastard that crawls out from under a rock to develop nuclear capabilities, disarming the decent countries will only make them victim to the rogues. (Is this your goal?)


are you retarded?

otherwise how could one ask such a question had you red what i said

Quote:
it would be a whole hell of a lot cheaper and safer if we just destroyed nuclear weapons and had a system where all of the technolgies were monitored.


Are YOU retarded? If you destroy nukes, the people like AQ Khan and others with the knowledge needed will just sell their secrets to other people.

COME ON!!!

You can only eliminate their use by making them OBSELETE!!!! Destroy them, and others will build more. SHEESH!

Sharing defense technology isn't aiding someone in attacking the US. It shows that we want a nuclear deterrent. It gives EVERYONE A NUCLEAR DETERRENT THAT RENDERS NUCLEAR WEAPONS OBSELETE.

(Wondering how many times one must say it o it will soak in certain heads.)

Anyone who argues against anti-ballistic missiles hasn't a clue about this issue.

And, the bullet proof vest is close to being a useful analogy. If you trade the vest for a force field, I'd agree.


Nuclear technolgy is here, and it's not going back nto the box, as others have alluded. Destroy them, and others will always build more.

No SYSTEM can moniter every asshole in a cave in Afghanistan. GET REAL!!!!
0 Replies
 
Atkins
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 03:04 pm
This is just another situation created by the USA.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 May, 2005 03:24 pm
I've gotta agree with Lash. An oldie but goodie ...

Pat Elliot(Texas CD10 Candidate) Speech on Constitution
Quote:
In an article in the May/June, 2001, Texas State Rifle Association Magazine shows how close we came to having pitch battles on our homeland during WWII and reads as follows: In 1960, Robert Menard was a Commander aboard the USS Constellation when he was part of a meeting between United States Navy personnel and their counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces. Fifteen years had passed since VJ Day, and most of those at the meeting were WWII veterans---men who had fought each other at sea were now comrades in battle who could confide in one another.

Someone at the table asked a Japanese admiral why, with the Pacific Fleet devastated at Pearl Harbor and the mainland US forces in what Japan had to know was a pathetic state of unreadiness, Japan had not simply invaded the West Coast. Commander Menard would never forget the crafty look on the Japanese commander's face as he frankly answered the question.

"You are right," he told the Americans. "We did indeed know much about your preparedness. We knew that probably every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military rifles. We were not fools to set foot in such quicksand." Please keep in mind that an armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject!

Which country would be a citizen of the world, and which would be a subject?
0 Replies
 
 

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