8
   

Hints to my sexuality over homework

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 10:05 am
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:

You live in a country where there are classes that try to legitimize arranged marriages?


That's not what the OP said. The OP said they had to write about arranged marriages as an introduction to Romeo and Juliet.

Btw, arranged marriages are only bad when they're forced on someone. there are lots of people from the Indian sub continent living in Southampton and I know some happy couples whose marriages were arranged.

Often it takes the form of asking the prospective couple to meet up and see how they get on. And if they do, and agree to the marriage what's the harm in that?

As long as nobody is forced or coerced into a marriage they don't want, I don't see the problem.

tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 10:13 am
@izzythepush,
I may have jumped to conclusions but with the very disturbing school exam plus the subject of the class alongside the inclusion of the parents in this very intrusive personal area of the student? Something stinks like rotten three eyed fish from a polluted and backwards culture.

If it was a legitimate sociology class the student is taking regarding the sociological understanding of arranged marriages in other countries? I really really suspect the parents wouldn't be directly involved as active participants to the sexuality of the student in question.

We have arranged marriages here (extremely rare) in the Hasidic communities here in NYC. We get too many reports of communities allowing spousal rape in these cases and their respective communities rallying around the husbands. I have a very difficult time accepting these marriages as anything other than culturally obsolete and erring towards a very patriarchal and near malicious practice. You might be luckier over there in England. From the anecdotal evidence over here? Not so much.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 11:05 am
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:

I'm going to be that person.

You live in a country where there are classes that try to legitimize arranged marriages? Whenever you can? Leave that disturbingly backwards country and look for political asylum elsewhere. Never look back.


Hurray for European Supremacy. The only reason most of the world doesn't have arranged marriages today is because Christian Europe colonized, conquered and stamped out the cultures that practiced it.

Many, if not most cultures that aren't Northern European had arranged marriages. Indigenous cultures in Asia, America, Australia, Africa all had arranged marriages until White people came and forced them to stop (either by converting or killing them).

Our European dominated cultures today all say they are fighting racism. Yet we continue to fight traditional cultural beliefs in the people we claim to be protecting.

We don't care what color your skin is, as long as you accept White cultural values.
tsarstepan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 11:11 am
@maxdancona,
You bite your freaking tongue. I'm an American exceptionalist. Never denied that. Weird that you didn't pick that up in almost ten years of me being here in a2k.

Arranged marriages allow for legitimizing spousal rape. So? At least I'm consistent in my (albeit aggressive) disdain for the exceptionally conservative social practice that should have died out a century or so ago.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 11:16 am
@tsarstepan,
If the choice is between "spousal rape" and genocide.... which do you think is worse for women?

If you believe that our European belief system is superior and has the right to dictate moral practices for indigenous cultures, then I disagree. I believe that indigenous cultural belief systems are equally valid. And, I accept that many indigenous values contradict the European way of thinking.

European culture colonized, dominated and destroyed indigenous cultures around the world. I don't believe that this shows that we were correct or more just than other cultures. I think we just had better guns.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 11:27 am
@Linkat,
Quote:
If what you say is true - that the teacher is nice and doesn't mean to be invasive, go talk to her. Tell her you feel uncomfortable with the assignment and feel it is too personal - is there another subject/paper that you could write about instead.


Back to the topic....

I think that talking to the teacher is a fine idea. I don't think you have any obligation to to so. If the teacher had the best intentions with this topic.... it is a creative writing assignment. If the purpose is to get you to think about arranged marriages, then you can think about arranged marriages without getting personal.

I still think it is perfectly OK to write as a fictional version of someone who isn't really you. That will be good practice for creative writing and fulfill the assignment.

You can deal with this issue in this class by talking to the teacher or by writing as your true self. Or, you can choose to keep this to yourself by just writing something made up. Make sure the writing is good... but it doesn't have to be personal.

It is your choice. Do what you feel is best for you. You aren't doing anything wrong either way.


0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 12:57 pm
@tsarstepan,
It's not a Sociology class, they're studying Romeo and Juliet. Spousal rape isn't unique to arranged marriages.

What exam? It's a piece of work designed to get the class into Romeo and Juliet. It's not a piece of work I would set but I can see its value, Juliet is supposed to get married to the County Paris, and at times he acts like he's already married to her. This was something that happened a lot with the nobility in the belief it would strengthen alliances and lead to peace, prosperity and trade.

The fact that three of Queen Victoria's grandchildren were on the thrones of Russia, Germany and the UK did nothing to stop WW1.

You're sounding very much like an imperialist, someone who thinks they know better than the benighted black people. Your American exceptionalism, led to the extermination of a lot of the indigenous population, and inspired the Holocaust.

And there's Vietnam.

There's nothing remotely superior about it at all.

If an arranged marriage is not forced on anyone and all parties are happy with it I don't have a problem, at all. We have laws to stop young girls being sent to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh to be forced to marry. People have gone to prison for it.

tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 01:03 pm
@izzythepush,
Fair enough. That detail was buried deep past the original post.

Quote:
If an arranged marriage is not forced on anyone and all parties are happy with it I don't have a problem, at all. We have laws to stop young girls being sent to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh to be forced to marry. People have gone to prison for it.

No one is going to openly admit to forcing an arranged marriage these days. Even the potential wife is likely going to admit she has granted her permission. For Pete's sake. Illegally sex trafficked workers are forced (under threats of violence, abandonment, etc...) to claim they openly granted permission to travelling to wherever her or his handlers forced her or him to go.

That's why health professionals and law enforcement agents ask the victims ((completely separated from their alleged family members who are responsible for their predicaments)).

More often than not, arranged marriages are depicted as consensual when ... they are so far from that state of mutual agreement.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 01:05 pm
@tsarstepan,
If you want to attack the horrors of the British Empire feel free. We've done some pretty shitty stuff too.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 01:18 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

If the choice is between "spousal rape" and genocide.... which do you think is worse for women?


It's not, they're both wrong. All rape, spousal or otherwise, is wrong and the perpetrators should be jailed. It's not a cultural thing it's wrong.

My support for other cultures' arranged marriages is based on consent. If all parties are happy and consent given I have no problem with it. If someone is being forced to marry against their will, those doing the forcing should be jailed.

Quote:
A husband and wife have been jailed for tricking their daughter into travelling to Bangladesh in order to force her into marriage.

The couple were described as "monsters" by their daughter who they had threatened to kill if she did not go ahead with the arrangement.

The father was jailed for four-and-a-half years and the mother for three-and-a-half years at Leeds Crown Court.

None of those involved in the case can be named.


The then 18-year-old daughter had to be rescued from a remote village in an operation by the British High Commission involving armed police, the judge heard,

The woman, who is from Leeds and is now aged 20, described in a victim impact statement how she had assumed a new identity and lived in fear of her family.

She said: "I know I will always have to remain cautious but, knowing those monsters are going to be in prison, I feel the uttermost freedom in my heart.

"I want other girls to know that forcing someone to marry is wrong."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-45010987
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 01:25 pm
@tsarstepan,
Quote:
No one is going to openly admit to forcing an arranged marriage these days.


This isn't true outside of Western Cultures. There are still indigenous communities that practice child marriage as part of their cultures in Africa, South America and the Phillipines. They don't care what we think (although they have no voice).

There are several modern countries that allow child marriage below the age of 15 (and some with no age restrictions). We can pressure them, the practice continues openly and proudly.

European culture is dominant in today's world. But it isn't exclusive.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 01:29 pm
@izzythepush,
If people live in a culture that rejects European hegemony about marriage customs, how do we jail them?

Do we invade them?

In the past we rounded indigenous peoples up and put them into special "Indian Schools" to get them to reject cultural practices we found troubling. Child marriage was historically used as reason that indigenous cultures needed to be erased and replaced by good Christian marriages.



tsarstepan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 01:40 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This isn't true outside of Western Cultures. There are still indigenous communities that practice child marriage as part of their cultures in Africa, South America and the Phillipines. They don't care what we think (although they have no voice).

So? Cannibalism and widow immolation is accepted in indigenous communities. Cool cool cool. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
They don't care what we think (although they have no voice)

So? Ethically, morally, and in many countries where these practices are profoundly accepted by indigenous communities but made illegal by their state and federal governments? Consent is thrown away because ... who cares? You clearly don't.

Quote:
European culture is dominant in today's world. But it isn't exclusive.

You keep proclaiming this as if I'm supposed to be angered by it? Upset by what I'm supposed to consider derogatory? Slavery is also practiced in the countries and regions you mention. Must assume you're fine with that as well.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 02:17 pm
@maxdancona,
Don't talk ****. I'm talking about our laws in our country. As for Human rights, it's not an issue addressed enough.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 02:26 pm
@tsarstepan,
Quote:
So? Ethically, morally, and in many countries where these practices are profoundly accepted by indigenous communities but made illegal by their state and federal governments? Consent is thrown away because ... who cares? You clearly don't.


In the modern world, there are several situations.

1) In countries like the United States, Australia and much of Latin America, the traditional cultures indigenous populations have largely been destroyed. In these countries the problem has been solved (through forced assimilation and killing a lot of people).

2) On the other extreme, there are some traditional indigenous cultures that haven't been touched and are (nominally at least) protected. An example of this is the Yanamomi in Brazil and Venezuela. They practice child marriage; as has been well documented. We have decided not to touch these cultures. I think this is a good idea.

Going in and destroying these ancient cultures (even in the name of stopping child marriage) would be a horrible crime in my opinion.

3) In many countries, for example India and much of Africa, Western culture now dominates the national culture. However traditional indigenous cultures still survive and practice customs that we would find troubling.

4) And there are groups of indigenous people in Western countries who defy (either openly or secretly) Western cultural norms. I believe this is happening in Australian Aboriginal communities, as well as some secretive groups (including Jewish and Muslim communities) in the US.

Western cultural hegemony is not as simple or complete as you seem to want to believe.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 02:34 pm
@maxdancona,
Max you ratcatcher, this is a thread about Romeo and Juliet, will you walk?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 02:37 pm
@izzythepush,
I answered the OP.

Tsar started this tangent with what I considered to be European Supremacy and I was pleasantly surprised to see you agreed with me (to a point at least). I felt compelled to answer him, and this tangent interests me.

You can always walk away if you want.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 02:52 pm
@maxdancona,
I thought that would be lost on you.

You went off on a tangent entirely of your own making about your favourite little hobby horse, child abuse in undeveloped cultures and why you think it's a good thing.

You've devoted a lot of posts to this topic, and not just on this thread, but quite a few others too. It's all getting rather dull, and between me and you, it's not healthy.

You can't separate spousal rape from human rights abuses in general, and as Western democracy we should put human rights at the top of our respective agendas. Murky arms deals with Saudi Arabia are more of an issue than indigenous practices in somewhere like Papua New Guinea.

Most people think that Juliet's famous "Wherefore art thou Romeo?" line is asking where Romeo is. It isn't. It's asking why he is Romeo, why the boy she's just fallen in love with is the son of her father's worst enemy.

As for arranged marriages, if you knew anything about the play you'd know it doesn't end well for any of them. This was their culture after all and Shakespeare is showing us that forcing people into marriage is wrong, regardless of power, position or prevailing culture.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 03:26 pm
@izzythepush,
This is the heart of your problem. Right now, the Yanamomi indigenous tribe practices child marriage (as have many indigenous tribes throughout history). Young adolescent girls are given away for marriage with the expectation that they will fulfill their duties (they are expected to have sex with their husbands). They consider their culture perfectly normal and have made it clear they don't want or need Western interference.

Do you think the Western term "spousal rape" applies to these traditional indigenous culture? Do you think that Western people should go in and stop this practice?

(BTW, if this conversation bores you... you can always stop responding. The fact that you complain but continue to engage makes me chuckle)

JustAnAce
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Mar, 2019 03:40 pm
@tsarstepan,
Heh. American schools are weird.
0 Replies
 
 

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