If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

Lets see MA you have been here on a2k about 3 weeks now, you seem to have acquired sufficient knowledge of several members in that time so that you can judge not only their intentions but there very character. I have known frank for several years, had dinner with him and ridiculed him to his face yet I don't think I could pass such judgement as you have after only 3 weeks. Are you god?

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dyslexia,

I have not passed judgement. If you will see most of the time I will say in my opinion, what I have gathered from your posts, etc. Frank is the one that said he does not believe, have faith in God, etc.

And this is exactly the type of thing Christians encounter. Non-believers accuse us of forcing our religion down their throats. Yet, when we try to just tell you how we believe, answer your questions, and not call you names, not belittle your beliefs, the very second we may become upset, irritated, ticked, whatever you want to call it, we are told we are losing it, blowing our tops, judging you, etc. If we even come close to doing to you what you consider forcing it down your throats you jump down ours. Then, when we make a comment on how we perceive someone to be by what they have posted, you call that juding? There is a difference between judgment and discernment. From Frank's posts, I discern that he doesn't appear to know what love is if he would allow his child to be murdered two seconds before it was born if that's what his wife would decide.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I see you are back at the mean side of you again. Rail on, Frank, rail on. Call us idiots, call us jokes, call us whatever you want. It is not going to change our minds or our hearts. As a matter of fact, it only strengthens us when we come up against those that believe, guess, estimate, etc., the way you do.

No I am not. I am attempting to discuss this stuff. If anything...you and your cohorts have been calling names.

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[Frank, you do not accept the one passage that I gave you because you look at it as an act of barbarism.

John 3:16???????

The god is only willing to forgive humanity for being human if it is willing to torture and kill its son....and you want to conceive of that as an act of love????

MA...if a human did the same thing...the human would be locked away forever as an insane criminal.

Wake up!!!!

I will not accept that as an act of love because it is not an act of love.

And incidentially....the god is not on the scene. That passage is a characterization by JOhn.

I am asking you to submit any passage from the Bible where your god is on the scene talking or acting....where the god is not threatening, killing, ordering killing, or any of the other barbarous acts and advice I have mentioned.

There are none.

There is absolutely no basis for considering the god to be kind, compassionate, understanding or anything else other than barbaric, murderous, petty, tyrannical, vengeful, jealous...and the lot.

YOU KNOW THIS TO BE SO...but you are terrified to acknowledge it.

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I know my God is loving and forgiving.

No you don't. You are saying your god is loving and forgiving because you in abject fear of it.

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Perhaps you are just afraid of Him, Frank.

Please! I'd sooner be afraid of the Grinch that stole Christmas.

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And, please, you need not respond to this.

Ahhh....but I love you so much, MA...I gotta respond.

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I don't think you are capable of understanding a love so pure as God's love, Frank.

I don't think you are capable of shedding your denial, MA.

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I believe that is because you do not really know what love is. You would support the decision to have your child aborted two seconds before it is born, and that is not love. You call it a fetus, a growth, and yet it would be your child?

MA...I've already told you I have had a vasectomy. I cannot father a child. These stupid questions and hypotheticals are absurd. I've answered them as best as possible...but they are absurd.

Let me lay one on you: Suppose a doctor told you that your pregnant daughter would die....without a doubt...unless her pregnancy were immediately terminated by abortion. Would you advise her to have an abortion?

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Tico asked you a question and you totally ignored it.

I have attempted to answer every goddam question put to me. I have asked...several times...for anyone who feels there is still a question I have not answer to repete it so that I will answer it.

How in the hell can anyone who has had any dealings with me possible accuse me of ducking questions?

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I have noticed throughout these threads that you do not answer everything (and don't ask me to point out where, I just did.) You pick and choose what you feel you can twist the most.

You are so full of shyt on this...it is almost laughable.

Ask any question that I have missed...(I am posting in a dozen different threads)....and I will reply.

What is this "ducking" bullshyt about?

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I will never accept your challenge Frank. Faith is not about proof. Faith is (Hebrews 11:1) Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

You will never accept my challenge, MA....because there are no passages that fit the bill (with the minor exception I've already mentioned.)

You are laughable to pretend that you are not doing it out of keeping with your faith.

If there were passages available...you, Neo, Intrepid, and all the rest of you sheep would be posting them one after another.

NONE OF YOU can take me up on the challenge, because you are all wet on this issue.

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And you have never said that the bible is written by men and not God so it cannot be true? Well, funny thing about that, that's what my intellect has grasped from your previous postings.

Well...that shows something about your intellect...because I have never NEVER said that the Bible cannot be true.

I have posted thousands of posts here...and tens of thousands over in Abuzz...and I defy you to find any post where is said the Bible cannot be true.

There are none.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
You have already misrepresented the meaning of those passages you wold love to cite, Frank.

Oh no I haven't. But since you cannot come up with any passages that show a kind, loving, compassionate god on the scene...I guess you are also stuck with pretending that you've found misrepresentations in the meaning of what I've cited.

Your postings are a joke, Neo. You are in way over your head here.

Where you have misrepresented is right in the beginning of the bible. You claim that God set Adam and Eve up to fail. That would place the responsibility for all of the suffering and misery of the past 6000 or so years on God.

The Scriptures clearly show that Satan was the original liar and manslayer. That places the blame for all of the suffering and misery on Satan. The judgements of the OT are undeniably harsh, yet they would never have occurred had it not been for the rebellion in Eden. They are to teach us about God's understanding of sin.

The law was impossible for imperfect humans to follow. Therefore when Jesus lived a perfect life according to the law, the pharisees and sadducees had no excuse not to recognize him as the messiah. He fulfilled the law, a fact you fail to recognize, but which was evident to early Christians who no longer worshipped at a temple or made use of a priesthood.

You may caterwaul about the 'babies' killed in the first Passover all you want, Frank. They are no more or less dead than any others who have died as a result of Adam's sin. And they are no less entitled to the resurrection promised by Jesus in John 5: 28,29.

If you want to find out what God is really like, examine the works and teachings of his son.

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Frank,

Excuse me, it was in a different thread you did not answer Tico's question.

Are you a psychiatrist now or did you just stay in a Holiday Inn Express Last Night?

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
You have already misrepresented the meaning of those passages you wold love to cite, Frank.

Oh no I haven't. But since you cannot come up with any passages that show a kind, loving, compassionate god on the scene...I guess you are also stuck with pretending that you've found misrepresentations in the meaning of what I've cited.

Your postings are a joke, Neo. You are in way over your head here.
Where you have misrepresented is right in the beginning of the bible. You claim that God set Adam and Eve up to fail. That would place the responsibility for all of the suffering and misery of the past 6000 or so years on God.

There is no misrepresentation on my part at all. Your god did set them up for a fall. And punished them for doing something that they did not even know was wrong.

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The Scriptures clearly show that Satan was the original liar and manslayer. That places the blame for all of the suffering and misery on Satan.

Sure...you sheep want to blame Satan. The real bad-guy of the Bible is not Satan...it is the god of the Bible. A totally untrustworthy, jealous, vindictive, retributive, petty, tyrannical, murderous, barbaric god.

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The judgements of the OT are undeniably harsh, yet they would never have occurred had it not been for the rebellion in Eden. They are to teach us about God's understanding of sin.

Your god is pathetic. The mythology trying to make the god stomachable is laughable.

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The law was impossible for imperfect humans to follow. Therefore when Jesus lived a perfect life according to the law, the pharisees and sadducees had not excuse not to recognize him as the messiah. He fulfilled the law, a fact you fail to recognize, but which was evident to early Christians who no longer worshipped at a temple or made use of a priesthood.

Sheep!!!

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You may caterwaul about the 'babies' killed in the first Passover all you want, Frank. They are no more or less dead than any others who have died as a result of Adam's sin.

Ahhh...a god who punishes all of humankind because of one mistake by one man...and a man who did not know right from wrong when he did what he did.

Jesus H. Christ. How can any intelligent person swollow this shyt?

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And they are no less entitled to the resurrection promised by Jesus in John 5: 28,29.

Forget about the promises in John. Try to find a passage where your demon god is on the scene...where the thrust of the material is not threats, killings, ordering killings..or any of the other disgusting things your god is into.

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If you want to find out what God is really like, examine the works and teachings of his son.

If there is a God...and who knows, there might be....the last place to look for information on it is in your Bible.

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But of course, all that is only my opinion.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

Excuse me, it was in a different thread you did not answer Tico's question.

Are you a psychiatrist now or did you just stay in a Holiday Inn Express Last Night?

Tell me what the goddam question is and I will respond. I am posting in lots of threads right now, MA...and I may miss a question or two.

Tell me the question...ask it of me...and I promise I will give a complete response.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

But of course, all that is only my opinion.

Yes it is, Frank

Yes it is.

We all wish our opinions to be true.

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Well, if Frank's opinions of God were true, I wouldn't want to be Frank, quite frankly.

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You know what the furrows in your brain are for? They are there so you can keep the good facts from the bad facts. Of course you have to work at it. But the payoff is a moral license.

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Moral license? I think that's pretty close to describing it. Yep, pretty darned close.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

You will never accept my challenge, MA....because there are no passages that fit the bill (with the minor exception I've already mentioned.)

You are laughable to pretend that you are not doing it out of keeping with your faith.

If there were passages available...you, Neo, Intrepid, and all the rest of you sheep would be posting them one after another.

NONE OF YOU can take me up on the challenge, because you are all wet on this issue.

What challenge is that, Frank?

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It's an oversimplification and a red herring designed to draw you into his straw man argument. But, go ahead and try.

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
But of course, all that is only my opinion.
Yes it is, Frank

Yes it is.

We all wish our opinions to be true.

And in this case Frank REALLY hopes he's right.

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Tico; How come Frank seems to avoid you? do you really look like that?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Well, if Frank's opinions of God were true, I wouldn't want to be Frank, quite frankly.

I haven't given any opinions of God, MA. Try to wake up.

I have been talking about that cartoon god in the Bible....you know the one...the jealous, vindictive, vengeful, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, petty, murderous, barbaric cartoon god.

So...no problem...unless the jealous, vindictive, vengeful, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, petty, murderous, barbaric cartoon god actually exists.

Then...I am in for an eternity of some discomfort.

But I will at least be able to say I had to balls to call a spade a spade with the god.

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neologist wrote:

Tico; How come Frank seems to avoid you?...

He's never before ... maybe he's ignoring me now. There have been several liberals doing that this week. I dunno .... <shrug>

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... do you really look like that?

Yes.

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He does exist, Frank. But no one has to worry about an eternity of discomfort, not even you.

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Well Frank,

I can see we finally agree on one point.

And Tico - You the man!

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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

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