You are all getting of the subject, if you all will do some research on the word HELL is is derived from the word schoel which is hebrew for the common grave of man kind. There is no burning hell fire. Just think if you had a son or a daughter and they did something wrong to you or someone else would you make them suffer forever? no you would not neither would god who love us and our children more then we could ever.
so there is no hell. Good thats the second part of the qestion dealt with.
Now did Jesus die to forgive us?
Your are all getting of the subject. do some reserch on the word hell in the orginal hebrew words and you will come up with the word schoel. which means the common grave of man kind. so ther is no hell fire to torment us forever. Just think if you have a son or a daughter and they did something wrong WOUL you make them burn in a hell fire forever not, god love us and our children more then we ever can so he would not either
Good Morning Everyone!
Amosunknown, I love the way you put it about being reeeeeallly simple. I totally agree with you and I think that may be why I have times articulating because I fall into the mode of trying to make it complicated. I am learning.
Ok, Neo, I love you, and you are one of my mentors here, you know that. However, you and I do differ on whether there is a hell or not. I believe there is, you believe there is not. So, we agree to disagree here. I have learned so much from you and that one point is not going to keep me from learning. And LOL on the remaining in Jersey!
Steve (as4100). I am not sure exactly what you mean by Did Jesus die to forgive us? He died in order that we might be forgiven so could you elaborate on that just a bit for me? I don't want to take your meaning incorrectly.
Intrepid, one of my other mentors, you take my confusion and make it make sense and keep me on the right path.
Hey Tico! Nice to see you!
Snood, my undying thanx and respect for your service. (Off subject just a sec, but I don't have PM rights yet). Snood, are you still active? Do you know anyone who is?
Momma Angel
Yes, I'm active, and I know a WHOLE LOT of others who are active, too. What brought that up?
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:so there is no hell. Good thats the second part of the qestion dealt with.
Now did Jesus die to forgive us?
Start with Genesis 3:15
Then, 1 John 2:2, speaking of Jesus: "And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's."
And a whole lot of pages in between.
OK I give you now a very sacred formula for happiness:
J:Jesus first
O:Others next
Y:Yourself last
Hell wasnt created for human spirits. It was the place that lucifer and the fallen angels were cast to. people die and end up in hell simply because they dont follow Jesus and their aligance automatically falls on Satan.
neologist wrote:Steve (as 41oo) wrote:so there is no hell. Good thats the second part of the qestion dealt with.
Now did Jesus die to forgive us?
Start with Genesis 3:15
Then, 1 John 2:2, speaking of Jesus: "And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's."
And a whole lot of pages in between.
Yup...this loving, kind, compassionte god of the Bible in effect said: Okay, you bunch of losers. I will forgive you your sins. But in order for me to do that...you must first torture and kill my son!
What a pathetic god.
If this god were a human acting the way it acts...it would be confined to a hospital for the criminally insane...probably under controls that would make those accomodating Hannibal Lecture look loose.
amosunknown wrote:Hell wasnt created for human spirits. It was the place that lucifer and the fallen angels were cast to. people die and end up in hell simply because they dont follow Jesus and their aligance automatically falls on Satan.
Interesting guess.
Almost as interesting as Neo's.
No wonder they call you people sheep!
Frank Apisa wrote:neologist wrote:Steve (as 41oo) wrote:so there is no hell. Good thats the second part of the qestion dealt with.
Now did Jesus die to forgive us?
Start with Genesis 3:15
Then, 1 John 2:2, speaking of Jesus: "And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's."
And a whole lot of pages in between.
Yup...this loving, kind, compassionte
(sic) god of the Bible in effect said: Okay, you bunch of losers. I will forgive you your sins. But in order for me to do that...you must first torture and kill my son!
What a pathetic god.
If this god were a human acting the way it acts...it would be confined to a hospital for the criminally insane...probably under controls that would make those accomodating
(sic) Hannibal Lecture
(sic) look loose.
Of course you overlook the fact (if you believe the bible, that is) that Jesus underwent this trial willingly. And it was only necessary for Jesus to live a perfect life and then die for forgiveness of sins. The torture was Satan's attempt to prove his claim he could turn any creature away from serving God, even His son.
I'll be gone for a few hours, Frank. Minor league baseball, you know. It's all we really have in Seattle this year.
Go play a round of golf. Take plenty of mulligans. I know you will.
neologist wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:neologist wrote:Steve (as 41oo) wrote:so there is no hell. Good thats the second part of the qestion dealt with.
Now did Jesus die to forgive us?
Start with Genesis 3:15
Then, 1 John 2:2, speaking of Jesus: "And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's."
And a whole lot of pages in between.
Yup...this loving, kind, compassionte
(sic) god of the Bible in effect said: Okay, you bunch of losers. I will forgive you your sins. But in order for me to do that...you must first torture and kill my son!
What a pathetic god.
If this god were a human acting the way it acts...it would be confined to a hospital for the criminally insane...probably under controls that would make those accomodating
(sic) Hannibal Lecture
(sic) look loose.
Of course you overlook the fact (if you believe the bible, that is) that Jesus underwent this trial willingly. And it was only necessary for Jesus to live a perfect life and then die for forgiveness of sins. The torture was Satan's attempt to prove his claim he could turn any creature away from serving God, even His son.
If your god were anything but a scumbag...no propitiation would be needed...let alone a human sacrifice.
In any case...since you had quoted from John...and commented that there was lots more in there....I offer MA's signature line from John as evidence that your god "gave" his son as a sacrifice.
Quote:For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. (The ultimate proof of God's love.)
How anyone can distort his incredibly savage and barbaric myth into a showing of love...is beyond amazing. Imagine this scenario with a human as the focus:
Quote:So apparently this guy took offense at what I did....and at some point, he told me he would forgive me for what I did (whatever that was)...but only if I first tortured and killed his son. I can't tell you how much I appreciate his show of love for me.
Folks...if the object of the scenario were a human...the one offering the son as a sacrifice would be locked in an institution for the criminally insane. The guy suggesting that the first guys actions constituted proof of love....would be in a cell next to him.
neologist wrote:I'll be gone for a few hours, Frank. Minor league baseball, you know. It's all we really have in Seattle this year.
Go play a round of golf. Take plenty of mulligans. I know you will.
Well...you are wrong on so many things, Neo...I guess it doesn't hurt to be wrong on this one also. I have not taken a single mulligan in probably 20 years. We agnostics are ethical. (Look up the word!)
Frank,
As I have stated before, it is more like a friend, brother, etc., stepping in front of a bullet to save you than it is what you describe.
But, Frank, you don't believe. You obviously don't want to believe. So don't. We do. It's our right. If you don't like us saying what we say, then quit asking questions about it or making comments on it.
If we want to be "sheep" then just leave us, the flock, alone.
And Shi, I love the JOY thing! That was too cool!
Momma Angel wrote:Frank,
As I have stated before, it is more like a friend, brother, etc., stepping in front of a bullet to save you than it is what you describe.
If your god wanted to forgive you your sins...your god could do it. If your god wanted you to torture and kill his son before he would forgive your sins...he would.
John 3:16 is one of the most disgusting passages in the Bible. Proclaim it if you choose...but that does not make it any more disgusting.
Quote:But, Frank, you don't believe. You obviously don't want to believe. So don't. We do. It's our right. If you don't like us saying what we say, then quit asking questions about it or making comments on it.
Why?
Why...in an Internet forum devoted to discussing these topics...must my view and opinions be eliminated?
Quote:If we want to be "sheep" then just leave us, the flock, alone.
No! If I saw you walking in the midst of traffic...am I supposed to leave you alone.
You folks keep proclaiming your piety. I intend to comment on the hypocrisy involved in your religion at every possible chance.
You don't like it...and can't stand the heat, MA...you go. I've been here for years.
Frank,
You misunderstand me. I am not trying to eliminate what you have to say. I am merely pointing out to you that we go through the very same thing over and over and over. I just feel we should agree to disagree on this point and we can discuss something else.
I won't (and am not even trying to force ) to change your mind and you won't (and I am trying to believe you aren't trying to force me to) change mine.
I, as I have said before, find it unnecessary to resort to name calling. But, that's on you. If you feel you must, then you must.
And Frank, if you think it's a disgusting verse, then that is your opinion. You don't understand the concept with the understanding that I do. And, that's a human thing. We all have our own ways of understanding, comprehending, etc. Doesn't make us wrong, it just makes us different.
God is perfect, humans are not. He made the rules. It's our decision whether to follow them or not. Just as if you know the law of the land, you know the consequences of breaking those laws. But it is YOUR choice whether to break them or not.
And trust me on this Frank, I am not walking in the midst of traffic so you don't have to shove me out of the way of oncoming cars. I choose my path. And, since piety is a dutifulness to one's religions, yep. Iamb pious all right.
Can't stand the heat? What heat? Is it hot in here to you? I want to stay on the civil side with you Frank. There are things we can learn from each other no matter what we believe or don't believe.
Momma Angel wrote:Frank,
You misunderstand me. I am not trying to eliminate what you have to say. I am merely pointing out to you that we go through the very same thing over and over and over. I just feel we should agree to disagree on this point and we can discuss something else.
Why do you people bring this stuff up....and why do you think I should discuss something else when you are discussing it?
Quote:I won't (and am not even trying to force ) to change your mind and you won't (and I am trying to believe you aren't trying to force me to) change mine.
I, as I have said before, find it unnecessary to resort to name calling. But, that's on you. If you feel you must, then you must.
What specifically are you talking about?
Quote:And Frank, if you think it's a disgusting verse, then that is your opinion. You don't understand the concept with the understanding that I do. And, that's a human thing. We all have our own ways of understanding, comprehending, etc. Doesn't make us wrong, it just makes us different.
No problem. But I resent your trying to get me to stop mentioning it.
Quote:God is perfect, humans are not.
If you are talking about the god of the Bible...that god is anything but perfect.
Quote: He made the rules.
Only in your mind. If you want to live by a bunch of rules made up by ancient Hebrews...do so.
Quote: It's our decision whether to follow them or not. Just as if you know the law of the land, you know the consequences of breaking those laws. But it is YOUR choice whether to break them or not.
What is your point?
Quote:And trust me on this Frank, I am not walking in the midst of traffic so you don't have to shove me out of the way of oncoming cars. I choose my path. And, since piety is a dutifulness to one's religions, yep. Iamb pious all right.
The single most important aspect of religion seems to be hyprocrisy. I'll leave it to you to brag about that if you see it.
Quote:Can't stand the heat? What heat?
You were the one asking me to stop. If it wasn't heat...what was it?
Quote: Is it hot in here to you?
Hell no. I love this. Can't wait to get into the forum to respond to your stuff.
Quote:I want to stay on the civil side with you Frank. There are things we can learn from each other no matter what we believe or don't believe.
Okay, do so. You might start by not telling me to keep out of the discussion.
Frank,
I get the biggest kick out of you sometimes and sometimes you just exasperate the heck out of me.
I am not asking you to stop. I just do not understand that, when we are both very firm on where we stand, we can't just agree to disagree?
Let me put the name calling thing to you this way. I would like to suggest a compromise. You call me whatever you want to and I'll live with it. However, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from calling my God and idiotic God. You can clearly state how you feel without resorting to that. I just have asked you to show the same respect that others have asked of you. You have the right to not respect what I believe, just as I have the right not to respect what you believe (think, feel, guess, estimate, etc.) But, you do not have the right to be disrespectful. No one has that right.
I didn't say stop discussing. I said can't we agree to disagree and move on to another topic? We are at an impasse here. Stuck in the mud, so to speak.
I don't call your beliefs, guesses, estimates, etc. idiotic, moronic, etc. I just ask that you afford me and others the same respect.
And I resent the fact that you rail against Christianity, my beliefs, my God. But, what good is resentment? You losing sleep over it? I'm not.
You see God as imperfect. I see Him as perfect. Stalemate.
Ok, only in my mind He made the rules? Ok, only in your mind He didn't. Stalemate.
My point is, we all make our own choices. You don't have to like mine and I don't have to like yours. Stalemate.
In your opinion the single most important aspect of religion seems to be hypocrisy. In my opinion, it is not. Stalemate
The temperature's fine in here. Just the adjectives you preface my God with I don't like. Compromise with me here, call me what you want but don't call Him names. It's a compromise. We both get a little of what we want. You get to call me the names and I get you to stop calling God names. It's a compromise.
Oh, I know you can't wait to get to my stuff, and quite frankly, Frank, I can't wait to get to yours either. It amazes me how you put meanings to my statements that never even crossed my mind, but that's the power of perception.
Ok, to be civil, I will not mention again about you keeping out of the discussion in any way. I apologize if that is what it seemed to you I was doing. Truce?
Gollywhompers, Ma; Frank's stunning, expletive laced logic just makes my day. I go to my list of logical fallacies to see how many he has committed. Pretty soon, I'll be able to submit him to the Guiness Book of Word Records.
I was going to edit the spelling, but thought my typo made sense after all.
