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If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?

 
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 09:13 am
neologist wrote:

Since you are an agnostic, you obviously don't believe it. I can reassure you that the bible does not support the idea of an automatic after life. The fact is when you're dead you're dead. No awareness. No aloneness. No roasting, toasting, baking or broiling. So you're safe as far as that is concerned.

If you want to talk about the possibility of a resurrection, that's a different story.


If you are so sure we are wrong, what's to say that you are right? We don't have "proof" but neither do you.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 10:38 am
bm
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 10:39 am
bm
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 10:42 am
neologist wrote:
Since you are an agnostic, you obviously don't believe it. I can reassure you that the bible does not support the idea of an automatic after life. The fact is when you're dead you're dead. No awareness. No aloneness. No roasting, toasting, baking or broiling. So you're safe as far as that is concerned.

If you want to talk about the possibility of a resurrection, that's a different story.


no, but i'll take this as an invitation to quote chapter and verse; to wit, Matthew 23:14:
Quote:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.


This implies degrees of damnation, does it not? incidentally, love your avatar, neonlogist. wish i could make mine flash like that.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:16 am
yitwail wrote:

no, but i'll take this as an invitation to quote chapter and verse; to wit, Matthew 23:14:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.


This implies degrees of damnation, does it not? incidentally, love your avatar, neonlogist. wish i could make mine flash like that.


If you read enough of my posts you'll soon discover my opinion of priests and pharisees. Their eventuality is desribed in the book of Revelation when judgment is brought against Babylon the Great. That doesn't increase their eternity when even death and hades will be brought to nothing.

Really, if something more than death were to be man's punishment for disobedience, wouldn't god have said so in the Garden of Eden?

As for avatars, try right clicking mine and 'save as' in your picture file. Then see if you can upload it through the board.

Then we'll share a cold one together. http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cheers.gif
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:26 am
neologist, thanks for the offer, but i'll keep my avatar, inanimate as it is. the cold one's cool though, as long as it's an O'Doul's. Cool
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 11:35 am
yitwail wrote:
neologist, thanks for the offer, but i'll keep my avatar, inanimate as it is. the cold one's cool though, as long as it's an O'Doul's. Cool


Basically, just a suggestion as to how any image can be copied. O'doul's it is, my friend. http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cap.gif
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 04:45 pm
As a believer in Near Death Experience I don't see the Light sending anyone to Hell. Hell doesn't exist. The Light is pure love and sending someone to Hell is a hateful human action.

I see Christians telling people that if they don't believe they will go to Hell. Muslims, Hindu's and all others who don't believe as they do will suffer eternal pain and torture, courtesy of God and all his wisdom.

But God doesn't support that belief. If God were so offended by other religions all he would have to do is deny souls for those beliefs he objects to and they would become extinct. Why would God give souls to a religion or, say, to a family of atheistic beliefs if he knew full well that would never believe in him?

So he could send them to Hell?

That's predestination.

If God gives life to all imaginable religions, beliefs and non-beliefs that should be the strongest sign of all that God supports life, not any particular religion or belief.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2005 07:33 pm
xingu wrote:
As a believer in Near Death Experience I don't see the Light sending anyone to Hell. Hell doesn't exist. The Light is pure love and sending someone to Hell is a hateful human action.

I see Christians telling people that if they don't believe they will go to Hell. Muslims, Hindu's and all others who don't believe as they do will suffer eternal pain and torture, courtesy of God and all his wisdom.

But God doesn't support that belief. If God were so offended by other religions all he would have to do is deny souls for those beliefs he objects to and they would become extinct. Why would God give souls to a religion or, say, to a family of atheistic beliefs if he knew full well that would never believe in him?

So he could send them to Hell?

That's predestination.

If God gives life to all imaginable religions, beliefs and non-beliefs that should be the strongest sign of all that God supports life, not any particular religion or belief.


Christians are supposed to believe that God created man in His own image, including the attribute of mercy. If imperfect humans would show mercy, we should expect mercy to a greater degree from God. Since the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" we can be sure that no one will suffer.

As for those who have never known God, Jesus promised in John 5:28, 29 "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." Judged, not by the things done in their first life, but by those things done in the resurrection after having a chance to learn the truth about God. Sounds pretty fair to me.
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 06:23 am
Those who don't have a legitimate chance to hear the word of Jesus will be judged in the second judgement. I think Rev. 10?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:10 am
If fairytales like this have meaning for people in this day and age...we are a very sad species indeed.

This is pathetic.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:12 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Those who don't have a legitimate chance to hear the word of Jesus will be judged in the second judgement. I think Rev. 10?

Could you find the applicable verse? The resurrection Jesus refers to in John chapter 5 takes place after Armageddon. The unrighteous must be taught in a world without distractions.

BTW, I appreciate your signature.
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:31 am
Revelation 20:11-15

http://www.frankcaw.com/Final-Judgment.html
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:44 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
If fairytales like this have meaning for people in this day and age...we are a very sad species indeed.

This is pathetic.


If the Bible is not God's word, perhaps I should be pitied. But look what I have received as a result of my belief:

I have a solid marriage based on trust.
I and my family are free from the consequences of alcoholism, fornication and countless other pitfalls. We don't have to contemplate the plight of those suffering single parenthood (or worse) to know these things are to be avoided.

It's true that many have misused the Bible to oppress others and justify their excesses. That's not a reflection on God. Jesus was reviled by those very same people. And they have obfuscated the truth since the beginning.

If you eschew religion because of its practitioners, your aversion is understandable. What I hope for you is an accurate knowledge of God. (John 17:3)
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 09:50 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Revelation 20:11-15

Quite right. After Armageddon. Note in verse 14 where death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. What do you make of that?
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 10:41 am
Quote:
I have a solid marriage based on trust.
I and my family are free from the consequences of alcoholism, fornication and countless other pitfalls. We don't have to contemplate the plight of those suffering single parenthood (or worse) to know these things are to be avoided.
Standard create better living environments!!!! What!!?!?!
Wink

Quote:
Quite right. After Armageddon. Note in verse 14 where death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. What do you make of that?


Well, death entered the world at one time, I think this is where it is taken out.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 11:14 am
Just when did death "enter" the world....

You really think we were without death at some time?
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 02:22 pm
Quote:
Since the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" we can be sure that no one will suffer.


Oh? And were did that assumption come from.

It's my understanding that the human is composed of two separate and distinct entities; body and soul.

Our body is a shell that enables our soul to interact in our present dimension. When we "die" our shell is discarded and our soul returns from where we came.

Those who have had NDE will strongly disagree with your statement. NDEer' say their ability to see, know and understand, when outside their bodies, greatly exceeds that then when they are in their bodies. The body, far from being the perfect creation, is an object that hinders their senses.

As for John, well I don't think he really knew what he was talking about. We are not judged by God. We are judged by ourselves. Our life is presented to us in our life review. We are shown scenes of the good and bad things we have done. We feel the joy we have given to others and the pain we have inflicted. This is how we learn.

Life is not a one time deal in which we had better get it right or else. It is a learning experience. It takes time. We will return.

A young boy named Marc, dying of incurable leukemia, said it best at a conference on death and dying in Montreal.

"I think that when you die, it's not all over. It can't be over because in my mind, it's just impossible. It continues-we just go back home. We go back home where we were before we were in this life. And that life is only something that we have to learn something. And when we learn that thing we go back home. We go back where we were before. And that life, of course, is limited to a certain time period. That is, external life. But the life that's inside is infinite, it never ends."
Lessons from the Light
Kenneth Ring
pp120
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 05:07 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Just when did death "enter" the world....

You really think we were without death at some time?

Far be it from me to put in my own words here:
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." - Romans 5:12
God told Adam and Eve that the consequence of their disobedience would be death. Note: simply 'death'; not 'hell'.

xingu wrote:
Quote:
Since the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" we can be sure that no one will suffer.
Oh? And were did that assumption come from.

Just saying what I read:
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." Ecc 9:5
xingu wrote:
It's my understanding that the human is composed of two separate and distinct entities; body and soul.

Again we read:
"God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." Genesis 2:7
Note: Man IS a soul. He does not possess a soul. The soul is mortal.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 06:42 pm
Genesis 2:7 give us two entities; man and the breath of life; body and soul. The breath of life is the soul and the body is the dust.

The Ecc: 9:5 should be taken in context. The author is telling us that that regardless of what we do we will all meet the same fate (Ecc 9:2).

He continues on that to tell us that we should all eat, drink and be merry (Ecc 9:7). Enjoy the life that we have and live it to the fullest.

Once we are dead and gone nothing here on earth will mean anything (but the dead will know nothing). We, as souls, will know nothing of death because the soul lives forever. Death is unknown to the soul. The soul will go back home and nothing here on earth, in this dimension, will matter.
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