Prisoners 'killed' at US Base

snood wrote:

I've heard of you guys. Colorblind and completely without bigotry... I've just never had the pleasure of seeing one of you face to face.

...even when I look in the mirror.

I mean no offense and do not write this to be contentious, but I consider myself about as "colorblind" as a person can be, and I would submit to you, snood, that the bias you seem to carry regarding issues of race would prohibit you from ever recognizing that trait in me.

Again, I mean NO OFFENSE. I may be wrong about you here. I may even be wrong about myself. I'm just throwing out a thought that occurred to me when I read what you wrote (above).

Regards,
TW

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TW I think your key words are "colorblind as a person can be", I think the point snood was making is that there is a ceiling to this.

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Craven

Your presence reminds me that I don't like your absence.

Quote:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080103/

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Craven de Kere wrote:

TW I think your key words are "colorblind as a person can be", I think the point snood was making is that there is a ceiling to this.

My "key words" were guided by modesty and the realization that nobody is perfect. I think what I was (am) trying to say to snood is that his ceiling appears to be set so low that he is unable (unwilling?) to see just how colorblind some around him are.

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trespassers will wrote:

Craven de Kere wrote:
TW I think your key words are "colorblind as a person can be", I think the point snood was making is that there is a ceiling to this.

My "key words" were guided by modesty and the realization that nobody is perfect. I think what I was (am) trying to say to snood is that his ceiling appears to be set so low that he is unable (unwilling?) to see just how colorblind some around him are.

If, by my believing that it is more true than not that most see and react to ethnicity in America, you see that as "having a low ceiling" in this regard, then I guess I have to stand so classified (in your opinion).

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snood wrote:

trespassers will wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
TW I think your key words are "colorblind as a person can be", I think the point snood was making is that there is a ceiling to this.

My "key words" were guided by modesty and the realization that nobody is perfect. I think what I was (am) trying to say to snood is that his ceiling appears to be set so low that he is unable (unwilling?) to see just how colorblind some around him are.

If, by my believing that it is more true than not that most see and react to ethnicity in America, you see that as "having a low ceiling" in this regard, then I guess I have to stand so classified (in your opinion).

I don't think I am trying to "classify" you. I guess I just infer a level of skepticism towards people that I thought might be setting expectations too low. Of course, everyone "sees" ethnicity, and I am sure that plenty of people harbor prejudices tied to what they see--whether intentional or something deeper. I guess I just think it is a shame if you are so convinced that no one is colorblind that you go through life unable to notice when you encounter someone who sees you simply as you.

That said, I have not lived your life. Your view of the world may be completely rational based on your personal experience, and mine may be just as rational based upon mine--and mine might be the one that doesn't recognize reality. I do know how I think and act towards others, and I suppose I tend to assume that there are lots of people like me out there.

So it is equally possible that I'm the one who isn't able to see people as they really are.

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Prejudice in oneself can be quite invisible. I can make educated and empathetic surmises regarding what it might be like to be a woman or a native in this culture, but I'm likely to get this only in some small measure.

Back in the sixties, when my hometown friends and I would go out and park our car in some farmer's field so that we could see the police coming and have time to hide the hashish, I tape recorded a few of those delicious evenings. A couple of years ago, one of my old compatriots and I got together and listened to a recording. There were three fellows and one bright young lady along that night. I was utterly flabbergasted at how we three dominated the conversation and how we talked right over top of her words. Yet she was easily our match in intelligence and education. I had no awareness at all that we had been doing this.

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blatham wrote:

Prejudice in oneself can be quite invisible. I can make educated and empathetic surmises regarding what it might be like to be a woman or a native in this culture, but I'm likely to get this only in some small measure.

I do not need to surmise what it is like to be you to treat you as an individual and with the same respect I would afford any individual, though I understand your desire to do so. Perhaps it is a lofty, well-intentioned, but impossible ideal.

As to that tape of your youth... I wonder whether if you gave it another listen you might find that the men involved were more willing to assert themselves and the woman was more apt to acquiesce precisely because you were (are) male or female. We all have innate traits that are to varying degrees tied to our gender. I'm not trying to argue that men have a biological imperative to be impolite, but rather that it is necessary to consider that we are "wired differently". So, perhaps what you heard on that tape, wasn't the men talking over the woman, but rather then men's willingness to talk over each other and her, and her willingness to step back and let others have the floor.

And of course there is the other possibility that this had nothing to do with gender at all, but that you simply had 1 polite person letting 3 others run roughshod over the conversation.

Just throwing out some thoughts. (Hope the hashish was good!)

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Tres

It isn't a matter simply of treating people as you'd like to be treated, though one surely ought to.

I drove cab one summer in my home town, and picked up a young native lady of fifteen or sixteen from her home on the reserve. As we were driving along, she pointed to the wires running above the road and said "I can't figure out how they get the water through there". Some life situations, as a result of old and deep social structures, produce disadvantages you and I would know nothing about.

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blatham - What is your point? That I should assume that any native woman I meet doesn't understand electricity? You seem to think that I must view her as an ethnic person to accurately see who she is as a person. I do not agree. She is the sum of her personal, individual experiences. That some of those experiences may have been negatively shaped by others who refused to see and treat people like her as individuals does not mean I should replicate their error.

I do not need to focus on the color of her skin to help her understand the wires.

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Where I'm having trouble with "prejudice" is in another context -- in the context of Israel/Palestine. As someone whose personal life has been inextricably connected with American and British Jews (some in the family, some significant others, some not) and who's not considered to be "prejudiced", I'm finding myself on the "wrong" side of an argument these days in which being appalled by the behaviors and attitudes of contemporary Israel labels one as is an "anti-semite." Does it? Of course it doesn't. Do I think a pro-Israel lobby in this country has had too much influence on our foreign policy? Yes, I do. Do I think our relations with Israel and our politicians' interest in capturing the "Jewish vote" have encouraged our aggression towards Iraq? I do. Do I think the exiled Cubans in Florida have had too much influence with respect to Cuba? Yes, I do. Do I think the pharmaceutical industry has way too much influence on our healthcare system? Yes, a thousand times Yes!

Do I think all of these lobbies exist for the same reason? Damn right: they are fostered by those very politicians who accept money and favors from them? Hey, if you divide people into groups and make them compete against each other, your campaign coffers will do very nicely. Am I worried about the fate of the Maryland congressman who apparently spoke up about the "Jewish" or "pro-Israel" lobby or some such? Yes, I am. If he spoke viciously, he deserves what he gets. If he spoke independently and honestly, we will be losing one of the few voices in Congress that are independent and honest.

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Trespassers Will,
...I can't speak for Snood, but naturally I have a good chance of understanding what he is saying, because it seems to coincide with what I feel. The only surprise is that he seems to have achieved a wisdom much earlier in life than I did. So here goes:
... It is naive to even attempt to be colorblind, and assume universal colorblindness. For my survival, I have to be historically predjudiced, in a precautionary way. However , I can't let this stop me from treating each individual fairly, on a one-on one basis. I learned this, when I challenged a caucasion friend's sincerity, and made him cry. It's a long complicated story, but I felt very bad, and knew from that point on that this whole thing is a very delicate situation of balance, which requires great instincts to predicate survival, and fairness. It's not easy. BTW, you seem to be like this friend of mine, you can be so sincere, you can be hurt by a challenge from a cautious person like me. Trust me, it's not you it's history.

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I am very much aware that I have certain prejudices, based on history, experience, and probably plain old gut feeling. I also know that prejudice is irrational. If 99.999...% of group X exhibits a certain trait, that says nothing at all about the next person that you meet from group X.

I may have certain feelings towards certain groups, ideas etc. That's all they are.... feelings. I make a conscious effort never to act on these irrational feelings. Am I always successful? No, because I am a fallible person, far from perfect. But I do my best to treat each person that I meet the same way that I would want to be treated. I don't think that I can expect any more from myself, or from others.

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Tartarin, by all means, it is necessary to distinguish pro-Israeli and Jewish lobby (if the latter thing exists at all). Pro-Israeli lobby includes, besides Jews, Protestant fundamentalists that are interested in survival of the State of Israel. The latter people are obviously non-Jews, though they are friendly to Jews and Israel.
From the ohter side, there are jews that have no feelings toward Israel, or their feelings are negative. I do not remember the name of the popular liberal lawyer that defended the Arab terrorist that assassinated the extremist rabbi Kahaneh, but this lawyer was a Jew.
And the very term "Jewish lobby" triggers very specific associations leading us to the "Zion Elders' Protocols" and "Mein Kampf" and other sources that advocate an idea of Jewish conspiracy aimed to grab global power.

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Very well stated, Booman.

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Quote:

For my survival, I have to be historically predjudiced, in a precautionary way.

For myself, I would find that unacceptable.

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Aww shucks Roger.

TW,
...I can appreciate that, but just so you know what I mean: If I'm stopped by a couple of white cops for being in a white neighborhood after dark, I'm not going to tell them "Hey, you can't do treat me like this, I know my rights." History tells me to pre-judge this situation, and be humble, because I could very easily get my head blown off, for such a statement , even if I say it politetly. If you can't understand, or believe this , I'll have to accept that. LOL

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How this thread went from prisoners killed at a US base to racial prejudice I do not know. However, since it did I would like to remind you that prejudice is not unique. It is also not restricted to the US but is universal. It is also not restricted to any race, religion or ethnicity. Show me a person who claims to be without prejudice and I will show you a liar. Suggest if anyone wants to discuss prejudice in the US or for that matter around the globe want don't they start a thread. If honesty prevails and people voice their true feelings it could be quite explosive. One last word regarding racial prejudice. It cuts both ways.

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I always have a problem when the response to a bad situation is, well, everyone else does it.

Steissd: the trouble is that to be "anti-Israel" is seen as the same as "anti-Jewish." Same with "Israel lobby." It would be ironic if "anti-American" sentiments were construed as "anti-Christian" and "anti-anglo-european" -- considering the fact (so wholly unattractive to quite a few Americans) that so many Americans are in fact neither anglo-european nor Christian. But I believe there are quite a few Americans who see this as a war against America's "superiority," a "superiority" which isn't limited to our natural resources and good fortune! Ignorance refuses enlightenment and lives in a world of its own creation.

Certainly, with reference to the subject of this thread, it seems unlikely that British or European "enemy combatants" would be kept in such circumstances as the Afghani captives. I think ethnicity is a factor, for sure. Remember the jokes and speculations about what they eat, how they pray, etc. etc.?

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Tartarin, I did not imply that you meant anything anti-Semitic. But the politician, and Mr. Moran is the one, should be more picky in choice of expressions. Pro-Israeli lobby is a pro-Israeli lobby, and American Jews are just citizens of the country; some of them support Israel, and some do not.

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Prisoners 'killed' at US Base

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