Prisoners 'killed' at US Base

Agree with your statements and observations, Booman. Still considering your conclusion.

I don't think that's ambivalence, Booman. I think those of us expressing horror at torture of foreign prisoners are no less horrified by the excesses of cruelty and aggression within America. This is the reason I'm arguing so hotly for reality here. We run the risk of losing our souls as we lie about what we're really up to. And that includes the treatment by the authorities (and by implication the rest of us) of prisoners, African American and all kinds. The most galling aspect of all this is the enormous distance between who we like to think we are and how we actually behave. We are in the current situation because we are willing to allow our officials to lie for us -- and we lie to ourselves.

Well, if that is true then you are a minority within a minority. Too many people see this issue as just another way to attack our country or this President, and had no complaint when Clinton bombed Belgrade (and still don't).

On NPR this morning they were talking about what position Ireland might take in all of this, and they interviewed a woman who was taking part in a rally. She said they were all there to "protest America". Not "protest against war" or "protest for peace", but "protest America". My thought when I heard it was, "finally, someone is being honest".

Streissd..... YES!!!

while in reality all americans are some shade of brown, the exact shade of brown all too often determines the degree of justice and fairplay.

I'll try not to deviate to much myself, but Streisd; Use your computor to help you obtain information on NY murder victims, Dorismond, Diallo, and Bumphurs. At the moment I'm having trouble with the name of a rape victim. Police tried to place a bathroom plinger, in a most innapropiate body cavity.

And you think those are anything other than extreme incidents involving a few very bad people who do not represent most cops?

Well, the violent cops exist everywhere. And this has nothing to do with racism. There were lots of ethnic Russians that were severely beaten up by the Soviet cops, majority of them being ethnic Russians themselves, and some of vistims (especially those being suspected in homosexual behavior) also got different items into inappropriate body cavities... I do not justify this either, but I do not think that it has anything to do with racism.

Unnamed victim violated while in police custody-Abner Louima.

As to the unfortunate Guantanamo Detainees ... well, they were taken while under arms in opposition to US forces authorized to effect their detention. Those who are in shackles behind a razor wire fence are arguably more fortunate than many of their compatriots, who, for whatever reason, chose to not submit to detention, and are now fertilizer at best ... chained is more alive than charred and dismembered.

I don't advocate physical torture, as I've said, but I have no problem with rigorous psychologic persuasion.


And, yes, sadly, I admit there is still inequity in our judicial system, and that much of it centers on prejudice. However, lynchings and vigilante killings are far rarer than once they were. Some progress has been made. The process should be allowed to continue untill it achieves success. There are folks who favor that approach to many things.



timber

I don't know how you could miss racism in the US, Steissd, even if you don't live here. There are movies, books, songs, poems, speeches, art works, music -- not to mention frequent accounts even in the "mainstream media." I listened on the radio yesterday morning to endless arguments that it would be all right, and in fact quite sensible, to stop African Americans who are driving through an upper middle class white neighborhood at night -- "just to check."

Know how people can miss seeing racism in this country? They just don't look, and when you say "see, right there!" they say its something else, or that its not all you say it is.

It seems to me weird that anyone may be a racist in such a modern, democratic and enlightened country as the USA. I have no prejudices at all in the racial issue, and I am not even interested in racial origin of the people I communicate to. The only person here that I know his racial origin for sure is Cicerone Imposter: he mentioned several times of his being a Japanese American.

I've heard of you guys. Colorblind and completely without bigotry... I've just never had the pleasure of seeing one of you face to face.



...even when I look in the mirror.

Which guys do you mean, snood?

snood, we have similar mirrors. I think most Americans do. We're still generations away from being "Color Blind", and things such as "African American This" or "Hispanic That" do nothing to speed progress toward the desired goal.

The best we can do for the moment is to over rule our prejudices ... not deny them, but confront them and over rule them. That's pretty hard for some folks.


Others don't even make the effort.



timber.

Tresspassers Will,
...Believe me, the things that reach the paper are only the tip of the iceberg. The incidents I told you about all happened in NYC, and these guys are sweethearts compared to cops in St. louis, and L.A..
...I didn't realize C.I., was Japanese-American. Ask him about Japanese-americans, during WWll.

Streissd,
...Snood is talking about most any person you meet on a level playing field. Don't get me wrong I have met people of other races that over time made me reconsider and feel a bit of shame for my own predjudices, but no way, there can be as much color-blindness as is claimed.
... For the record, things are so very much better than it used to be. Ironically, to me it seems to be more so in the south. Go figure