Is faith healing real?

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Oh, and real life, you should be more careful with your quotations.

What you've committed right now is what could be classified as plagiarism. To properly quote the Bible, you must quote the Book, the Chapter number and the verse number along with the actual quote itself. It is also far more accepted if you also state the version of the Bible you are quoting from, like this:

Exodus 22:25 (New International Version)
"If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest."

Funny, the church Fathers (early Christian writers from the first 10 centuries of Christian history) never did so. Were they all plagiarists? C'mon.

If it's any comfort to you, Neologist knew I was quoting scripture and could probably have told you the book and chapter I was quoting without looking it up.

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real life wrote:

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Oh, and real life, you should be more careful with your quotations.

What you've committed right now is what could be classified as plagiarism. To properly quote the Bible, you must quote the Book, the Chapter number and the verse number along with the actual quote itself. It is also far more accepted if you also state the version of the Bible you are quoting from, like this:

Exodus 22:25 (New International Version)
"If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest."

Funny, the church Fathers (early Christian writers from the first 10 centuries of Christian history) never did so ...

Oh, yes they did. Now, prior to The Reformation, there was little call for identifying the version - with only minor exception, for around a millenium and a half there was but The Latin Vulgate - however, when citing scripture, Old Testament or New, the Fathers of The Early Church most specifically referenced Book, Chapter, and Verse. I refer you to the writings of Eusebius, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dinoysius the Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius, Methodius, Arnobius Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Clement, Origen, Tatian, Theodoret, Jerome, Gennadius, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, Basil, Hilary of Poiters, John of Damascus, Sulpitus Severus, Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian, Leo the Great, Gregory The Great, Augustine, John Chrysostom, and Thomas Aquinas, among others, along with assorted minor writers, both ante-Nicene and post-Nicene.

I recommend to you The Early Church Fathers (38 Vols): Schaff, P and Alexander, R, eds.
(Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody Ma., 1994)[/quote]

Embarrassed

Edit to add: OOPS - screwed up that first edit -sorry for the confusion. I really gotta learn to use "Preview" - timber :oops"

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Faith healing when sold seems to me to be mostly a hoax and very lucrative to boot. However, faith I do believe can heal the mind and the body.

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Is this a sign of senility, or are you just fond of repeating yourself?

EDIT: Damn, you deleted it before i could have my fun with you.

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Sorry, Set - didn't mean to inconvenience you - I screwed up an edit - thought I could get away without my goof bein' noticed - it was the last post in the thread when I deleted it. Looks like you busted me Laughing

Looks like I still managed to screw up the original edits, too. Oh, well. Embarrassed

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I never worry about the edit thing . . . i edit, re-edit, re-edit . . . i keep at it 'til i get the thing right.

I was disappointed at not having had the opportunity to give you the virtual raspberry, though.

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Oh, I earned the raspberry, no question. I accept it. Didn't mean to disappoint.

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timberlandko wrote:

Oh, yes they did. ......when citing scripture, Old Testament or New, the Fathers of The Early Church most specifically referenced Book, Chapter, and Verse. I refer you to the writings of Eusebius, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dinoysius the Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius, Methodius, Arnobius Lactantius, Venantius, Asterius, Victorinus, Dionysius, Clement, Origen, Tatian, Theodoret, Jerome, Gennadius, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, Basil, Hilary of Poiters, John of Damascus, Sulpitus Severus, Vincent of Lerins, John Cassian, Leo the Great, Gregory The Great, Augustine, John Chrysostom, and Thomas Aquinas, among others, along with assorted minor writers, both ante-Nicene and post-Nicene.

Well I guess you're entitled to your opinion but some disagree. see www.answers.com/topic/chapters-and-verses-of-the-bible

And I'll have to say I've never seen chapter or verse referenced in the portions of the Fathers that I have read, unless it is the addition of a modern editor that has done so for your convenience.

OCCASIONALLY the book is referenced, but often the writer seems to assume that you are familiar enough with the scriptures to know what he is talking about.

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timberlandko wrote:

gospelmancan2, all you have to do is produce the verifiable, corroborative medical documentation you say or imply exists. Please note an essay or article saying such documentation exosts does not fil the requirement.

As I said in an earlier post, how would I know that you would not just deny the validity of any documentation I could produce? How about a doctor whose daughter was healed? I know a doctor who practices medicine here in our city whose daughter was found to be developing in the womb with no brain. In it's place was a large cyst. This was verified medically and the prognosis was that there was no hope for a normal delivery. A second opinion brought the same result. The obstetrician himself said that "Your only hope is in God" This doctor quit his job in Edmonton and decided to pray for a miracle. After a number of weeks in almost constant prayer he laid hands on his wife's abdomen and commanded the child to be whole. The child was born normally and this child is high in the standings in the school she attends. This doctor still works in the emergency department of our local hospital.
I suggest you contact Dr. Gary Hill at the Peterborough Regional Health Center in Peterborough Ontario Canada. I know that he would be happy to tell you all about it. Maybe he will send you some pictures of his daughter as well.
As far as some other things I said goes,I could assemble enough witnesses to the leg straightening in Lindsay Ontario to satisfy a criminal or civil trial but not to satisfy anyone who already has their mind made up that faith healing does not exist.
Debate is not ignoring the statements of the opponent or declaring their statements invalid by some personal fiat, but is a weighing of the statements of the opponents by others for the others to form a conclusion.
Anything else is just another form of "yes it is" and "no it isn't". Hardly the basis of intelligent discussion.

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From your text here, Gospelman, it appears that the child in question is now grown for several years. It's a hell of a long way from Edmonton to Peterborough--half-way across the width of Alberta, clear across Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and most of Ontario, and half the length of the Lake Ontario shore. A sceptic has every right to question whether or not the physician in question is telling the truth, given that the event you describe took place at least several years ago, and a very long way away in space. It reads very much like you have advanced a claim which you are not prepared to support.

I'm not trying to beat up on you--but in debate, there are standards of evidence which it is not unreasonable to request others to meet. Is this physician a devout christian, who might therefore have a stake in falsifying the account to support his religious views? Was this claim ever the subject of news reports in Alberta, or nationally, which one could check?

Once again, i say this without hostility: when you advance an extraordinary claim, the burden of proof is on you. If you expect to be believed you need to provide evidence.

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Setanta wrote:

I'm not trying to beat up on you--but in debate, there are standards of evidence which it is not unreasonable to request others to meet. Is this physician a devout christian, who might therefore have a stake in falsifying the account to support his religious views? Was this claim ever the subject of news reports in Alberta, or nationally, which one could check?

I stand again on my point that I cannot produce evidence that will satisfy those of you who have already made up your minds. If I were to produce 1000 medically verifiable cases holes would be found by those who choose to believe anything else but the existence of faith healing.
I submit again. Contact Dr. Hill yourself. I have given the means for you to gain the information you say you seek. I do not think that it is unreasonable to give others an avenue of investigation to follow at their convenience. Others in this thread have used links to websites. Dr. Hill does not have a link or I would gladly give it out. If weblinks are acceptable to back up a point then snail mail is as well.

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Quote, "I stand again on my point that I cannot produce evidence that will satisfy those of you who have already made up your minds." Now, that's a cop-out if I ever saw one! We make up our minds on many things as we learn about different things. For instance, I've made up my mind that all religions are man-made. If you can't produce evidence to prove otherwise, why should I believe your opinion that contradicts mine?

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gospelmancan2, its not that folks minds are "Made UP" against your proposition, it is that folks have seen nothing to put them in mind of the validity of your proposition. As so often is the case in such instances, when pressed for evidentiary validation, you have not provided same, but said "It is available if you just take the effort to look for yourself." That is

A) A copout indeed, and of the first order
B) A tacit admission of defeat, a forfieture by default
and
C) Stereotypical of proponents for the argument you present

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Gospelman, it apparently does not occur to you that you may have been cozened yourself. It is thousands of miles from Peterborough to Edmonton. This gentleman could easily make up the story, and there would be no casual way to find out if any witnesses he claims exist do in fact exist. That was my point abou the event being removed in space. Furthermore, if the child is ten years old or older, it is unlikely that anyone could find a news account online, if one ever actually existed--which is what i meant about removed in time.

It simply does not occur to you that you could be hoodwinked by a religious shyster who knows that in 999 cases out of a thousand, no one is prepared to do the work necessary to call him out.

And, in any case, it appears that you " . . . choose to believe anything else but the existence of faith healing" might be a hoax.

If you make extraordinary claims, and wish to be believed, the burden of proof is on you.

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gospelmancan2 wrote:

I suggest you contact Dr. Gary Hill at the Peterborough Regional Health Center in Peterborough Ontario Canada. I know that he would be happy to tell you all about it. Maybe he will send you some pictures of his daughter as well.

What department is Dr. Hill in?

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According to this link, Gary Hill in Toronto is in the auction business. LOL http://www.internetauctionlist.com/calendar/AssocCalendar_Event_Details.asp?ID=40996&CalID=163

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gospelmancan2 wrote:

In Toronto a few years ago I attended a Benny Hinn Meeting where a man got up out of a wheelchair after prayer. He had been diagnosed with bone cancer of a type that if he got up out of the chair without a healing, his legs would have been shattered from the strain. This case was written about with supporting medical documentation in both the Toronto Star and the Peterborough Examiner (the man's local paper)

I'm having some trouble finding this in the Toronto Star caches/archives. What was the date of the meeting?

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otolaryngology deparrtment
The branch of medicine that deals with diagnosis and treatment of diseases of the ear, nose, and throat. Also called otorhinolaryngology.

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dyslexia wrote:

otolaryngology deparrtment
The branch of medicine that deals with diagnosis and treatment of diseases of the ear, nose, and throat. Also called otorhinolaryngology.

No Dr. Gary Hill practicing in that area in Peterborough.

Dr's Fung and Sewchand are the local specialists in that area.

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A google search on Benny Hinn was extremely entertaining. He is apparently so far out there, that the christian charismatics condemn him. Quite a revealing search it was.

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Is faith healing real?

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