Is faith healing real?

timberlandko wrote:

While I don't know you, I would venture it a safe guess to postulate I've spent more time, all told, studying the subject than you have spent out of diapers. I've seen more than the trailer, I'm workingly familiar with the entire genre.

C'mon timber, fight fair. Remember the bible was not written for intellectuals. That's what the clergy would have us believe. It was written for me and for my neighbor Joe Sixpack and for his cousin Spongebob. Erudition is fine; but it is often employed as "an ambidexter instrument for effecting the irrational." - Herman Melville, Billy Budd

While I'm impressed by your academic pedigree, what moves me to think is your razor sharp reasoning. Please keep it simple; 'there's nobody in here but us chickens.'

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neologist wrote:

timberlandko wrote:

While I don't know you, I would venture it a safe guess to postulate I've spent more time, all told, studying the subject than you have spent out of diapers. I've seen more than the trailer, I'm workingly familiar with the entire genre.

C'mon timber, fight fair. Remember the bible was not written for intellectuals. That's what the clergy would have us believe. It was written for me and for my neighbor Joe Sixpack and for his cousin Spongebob. Erudition is fine; but it is often employed as "an ambidexter instrument for effecting the irrational." - Herman Melville, Billy Budd

While I'm impressed by your academic pedigree, what moves me to think is your razor sharp reasoning. Please keep it simple; 'there's nobody in here but us chickens.'

No, no , Neologist. Don't worry about this.

He had to resort to personal attacks since he ran out of things to say. It was something I frankly expected.

Timber, like a used car salesman you are accustomed to controlling your hapless victims by asking endless, pointless questions.

Sorry I didn't take the bait for you. You put yourself out on a limb when you ask questions. I sawed it off when I challenged you to answer your own question by experimentation.

By your own account you have examined the car from various angles over time. I challenged you to get in the drivers seat and turn the key.

Since your questioning was not sincere, your bluff has been called. Better luck on your next sale, Timber.

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real life wrote:

neologist wrote:
timberlandko wrote:

While I don't know you, I would venture it a safe guess to postulate I've spent more time, all told, studying the subject than you have spent out of diapers. I've seen more than the trailer, I'm workingly familiar with the entire genre.

C'mon timber, fight fair. Remember the bible was not written for intellectuals. That's what the clergy would have us believe. It was written for me and for my neighbor Joe Sixpack and for his cousin Spongebob. Erudition is fine; but it is often employed as "an ambidexter instrument for effecting the irrational." - Herman Melville, Billy Budd

While I'm impressed by your academic pedigree, what moves me to think is your razor sharp reasoning. Please keep it simple; 'there's nobody in here but us chickens.'
No, no , Neologist. Don't worry about this.

He had to resort to personal attacks since he ran out of things to say. It was something I frankly expected.

Timber, like a used car salesman you are accustomed to controlling your hapless victims by asking endless, pointless questions.

Sorry I didn't take the bait for you. You put yourself out on a limb when you ask questions. I sawed it off when I challenged you to answer your own question by experimentation.

By your own account you have examined the car from various angles over time. I challenged you to get in the drivers seat and turn the key.

Since your questioning was not sincere, your bluff has been called. Better luck on your next sale, Timber.

real life,

You are the one making personal attacks above. Quite clearly.

Hey, I think perhaps my questions have been too hard for you, since you either don't answer them or give some ridiculous answer.

So here is an easy one:

Japan has the longest average life expectancy of any nation.

Yet places such as South America and the Philippinnes have a much higher rate of Christianity. If Christian God wants people to live longer, and people believing on Jesus will be healed and will live longer, why then doesn't the life expecantcy of nations correlate to the percent of Christians in the population of nations?

There aren't many Christians in Japan relatively....seems like they should be dying sooner and getting sick much more than predominantly Christian nations such as Philippines or South American coutnries?
Please answer directly, no need any scriptures for this one!

Why are the pagans & disbelievers living longer than the believers, and why are they healthy with less illness?!?

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real life wrote:

Sorry I didn't take the bait for you. You put yourself out on a limb when you ask questions. I sawed it off when I challenged you to answer your own question by experimentation.

Actually, real life, if you return to the initial post of this thread, it is incumbent on you to provide proof of the proposition. I asked timber to keep it simple only because it is my personal belief that God would not require extraordinary intelligence on our part in order to discover the truth, only honest study. I think I can prove this by scripture, if asked.

When it comes to experimentation with a practice that (once again my opinion) is no longer an acceptable practice of Christianity, that scares me. You would have to first prove it acceptable. I already believe it may exist.

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real life wrote:

He had to resort to personal attacks since he ran out of things to say. It was something I frankly expected.

Please quote the "personal attack".

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Timber, like a used car salesman you are accustomed to controlling your hapless victims by asking endless, pointless questions.

Now, there's a personal attack, coupled with an unsupportable allegation based on unwarranted assumption.

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Sorry I didn't take the bait for you.

I would never dream of competing with a master of that discipline.

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You put yourself out on a limb when you ask questions. I sawed it off when I challenged you to answer your own question by experimentation.

Nonsense. I have nothing to prove - I seek proof. Tyour argument has been challenged. You presented the argument. You have provided no support for that argument, you dance around the questions. In fact, rather than provide answer to the questions, you denigrate the questions, terming them, in your words, " ... endless, pointless". In so doing, you not only fail to support your argument, you condem it. The questions are endless simply because they have not been answered. A question remains a question untill answered. Get to the point and answer the questions, and the questions will end. Its that simple. That IS the point.

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By your own account you have examined the car from various angles over time. I challenged you to get in the drivers seat and turn the key.

Since your questioning was not sincere, your bluff has been called. Better luck on your next sale, Timber.

You really don't get it, do you? Of course my questioning is sincere - your response to same has been notably less so. I'm the prospect here, you're the salesman. Its your product. Make me want to buy it. Thats your job. I'm really not that tough a customer; I just want the facts and figures. Lets get down to business. Show me what you've got. I'm ready to buy.

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timberlandko wrote:

I seek proof.

Your seeking can easily be rewarded with either proof or disproving as I have outlined.

It's like someone saying, "hmmm, try this salad, it's delicious". The proof is in the eating. Would you tell them, "Prove to me it's delicious and then MAYBE I will try some."

You want to know if prayer works.

It's easy to find out by trying it:

--Discover under what conditions God says He will answer prayer.

--Be sure you continually meet those conditions.

--Pray.

What's so hard about that?

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Sounds easy to me....

I could say "God, please help me to be confident in my job interview today"

..and I go to my interview knowing that God is going to help me to be confident...

...and I am !!!!

...it works !!!!

Glory Be to the Lord of Subjective Self-Reinforcement !!!!

Rolling Eyes

Must remember to ask him to go easy on the tsunamis , since I'm thinking of moving to Thailand.....

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This is in response to all those who are demanding "scientific proof" of faith healing as the final arbiter in this debate.
It must be very convenient to be able to demand my supplying proof of faith healing when you then have the option to discount anything said in support of it. What proof do you want? What would convince you that faith healing is real?
I prayed. I was healed. I prayed. Others were healed. I stand by those statements. Either the healings did not happen and I am lying or the healings did happen and faith healing is real.
If you believe that I would lie about this how could you then believe any proof I would bring to you for examination? A fine kettle of fish I am in!!
I could go to the trouble to hunt up the testimonies of countless others who have been healed or lead you to web sites which would tell you the same thing but considering you have discounted my statements, I could assume you would probably discount theirs.
What a great way to make sure you never have to expand your mind beyond the confines of your comfortable existence.
I have been on both sides of the tracks here. I used to think that all this stuff was BS. I was then faced with first hand evidence that convinced me.
As I have said in previous posts, I have seen too much for me not to believe in healing. If I still clung to past convictions in the face of that I would be nuts to conclude otherwise.
Do you believe in gravity? (I will assume you do) Why do you believe in gravity? You believe in gravity because (cutting out all the semantic acrobatics) you have seen it's effect too many times to discount it. That is also at the core of the scientific method. My observations in this area can only lead me to one conclusion. The fact that you have not made the same observations does not conclude that I am wrong but maybe that you are not privy to all the available information.

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gospelman,

It's subjective:

I got sick...I didn't pray, I healed.

Others got sick, I didn't pray, they healed.

That doesn't prove anything any more than yours.

What would prove it is if it was shown that praying made a difference in a statistically significant number of cases.

As it turns out, praying does help, but no more than any other positive attitude does, so it's essentially equal to the placebo effect.

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real life wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
I seek proof.
Your seeking can easily be rewarded with either proof or disproving as I have outlined.

It's like someone saying, "hmmm, try this salad, it's delicious". The proof is in the eating. Would you tell them, "Prove to me it's delicious and then MAYBE I will try some."

You want to know if prayer works.

It's easy to find out by trying it:

--Discover under what conditions God says He will answer prayer.

--Be sure you continually meet those conditions.

--Pray.

What's so hard about that?

Don't tell me how to prepare a meal, or how well you can do so, sell me one. What's so hard about that?

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Eorl wrote:

gospelman,

It's subjective:

I got sick...I didn't pray, I healed.

Others got sick, I didn't pray, they healed.

That doesn't prove anything any more than yours.

What would prove it is if it was shown that praying made a difference in a statistically significant number of cases.

As it turns out, praying does help, but no more than any other positive attitude does, so it's essentially equal to the placebo effect.

Interesting that you should mention the placebo effect. There is no rational scientific reason that the placebo effect or positive attitude should work. They just do. Could it be that both of these things are operationalizing faith which is a component of faith healing?

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The meal is already there and it's free, not for sale. I have nothing to gain or lose by your partaking or abstaining.

If you want it, start chewing.

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real life wrote:

The meal is already there and it's free, not for sale. I have nothing to gain or lose by your partaking or abstaining.

If you want it, start chewing.

Well said!!

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gospelmancan2 wrote:

Eorl wrote:
gospelman,

It's subjective:

I got sick...I didn't pray, I healed.

Others got sick, I didn't pray, they healed.

That doesn't prove anything any more than yours.

What would prove it is if it was shown that praying made a difference in a statistically significant number of cases.

As it turns out, praying does help, but no more than any other positive attitude does, so it's essentially equal to the placebo effect.

Interesting that you should mention the placebo effect. There is no rational scientific reason that the placebo effect or positive attitude should work. They just do. Could it be that both of these things are operationalizing faith which is a component of faith healing?

Absolutely, I agree. Faith could indeed be a component in faith healing. It could even be good for you. Doesn't mean it works for the reasons you think it does, and it doesn't mean that the asking Winnie the Pooh to help wouldn't work equally well.

Certainly doesn't mean "faith healing is real"

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real life wrote:

The meal is already there and it's free, not for sale. I have nothing to gain or lose by your partaking or abstaining.

If you want it, start chewing.

You talk about the meal, you say its free, you say its served, you say one may chose to partake or not as one might wish. What has not been produced is the meal itself. Saying it is there does not put it there. Lets see the meal. Answer the questions.

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Eorl wrote:

Absolutely, I agree. Faith could indeed be a component in faith healing. It could even be good for you. Doesn't mean it works for the reasons you think it does, and it doesn't mean that the asking Winnie the Pooh to help wouldn't work equally well.

Certainly doesn't mean "faith healing is real"

If faith could be a component in faith healing then faith heals. I would think that would be faith healing, wouldn't you?
Anyway to move on. Here is a case for you.
A young lady, 16 yrs. old had a stroke on May 25, 2002. The right side of her body was completely paralyzed and her speech was scrambled. She was experiencing terrible headaches. A catscan was done a Deaconess Medical Center revealing that a main artery was split in her neck.

The doctor said if she moved her neck suddenly or popped her neck, it could kill her. The neurologist told her mother that she was "a walking time bomb"!!!

She continued to have severe headaches. She had to have daily injections to thin her blood. Then, on Wednesday, July 24, four neurologists looked at new x-rays and concluded that her condition was deteriorating.

She was very scared and wondered who would help her new baby's father care for their little girl.

On Sunday, July 28th, she came to the healing meeting at Lake's Tabernacle. She had a headache and her neck and back were in pain.

She came forward for ministry and the healing team laid hands on her and ministered healing. Her neck and back felt better and the headache went away.

On Tuesday morning, July 30th, she went back to Deaconess for more x-rays and tests.

The neurologist told her that he didn't know how it happened, but SHE WAS TOTALLY HEALED!!!! She asked the Doctor if he believed in Jesus!!! She told everyone who came into the room that she had been healed. She told the nurse how she had gone to a healing meeting, had hands laid on her, and she had been healed. The headaches are gone and she no longer needs injections. The neurologist told her to come back in 3 months for a check-up.

Here is another case.
I was at a church meeting in Lindsay Ontario Canada
in the summer of 1997. An evangelist by the name of Billy B. Smith was preaching.
At the end of the service he asked if anyone needed healing. A woman wheeled her son up in a wheelchair and revealed that her son had club feet.
As well as club feet, due to the disuse of his legs, his leg bones were smaller than normal and his leg muscles were atrophied.
He invited us to examine the boy's legs with his mothers permission.
He then asked anyone who would like to see a miracle to gather around. He then prayed for the boy's healing in the name of Jesus and the boy's feet and legs immediately straightened out.
I realize that some of you may assume that this boy was a plant of some sort.
This boy was well known in his community and his condition was well documented.
In Toronto a few years ago I attended a Benny Hinn Meeting where a man got up out of a wheelchair after prayer. He had been diagnosed with bone cancer of a type that if he got up out of the chair without a healing, his legs would have been shattered from the strain. This case was written about with supporting medical documentation in both the Toronto Star and the Peterborough Examiner (the man's local paper)
If you discount all this, I would resubmit my point that there is no way I can bring proof that will satisfy your requests for documented cases and I again invite you to search for yourselves.

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gospelmancan2, all you have to do is produce the verifiable, corroborative medical documentation you say or imply exists. Please note an essay or article saying such documentation exosts does not fil the requirement.

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timberlandko wrote:

gospelmancan2, all you have to do is produce the verifiable, corroborative medical documentation you say or imply exists. Please note an essay or article saying such documentation exosts does not fil the requirement.

Yeah, what you said.
Also, gos; May I call you Gos? You may call me neo.
Also, gos, you will have to prove that the faith healings come from the god of the bible and not from the god of this world.

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neologist wrote:

Also, gos, you will have to prove that the faith healings come from the god of the bible and not from the god of this world.

21 But when his relatives heard about it, they went out to lay hold of him, for they were saying: "He has gone out of his mind." 22 Also, the scribes that came down from Jerusalem were saying: "He has Be·el´ze·bub, and he expels the demons by means of the ruler of the demons." 23 So, after calling them to him, he began to say to them with illustrations: "How can Satan expel Satan? 24 Why, if a kingdom becomes divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand; 25 and if a house becomes divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 Also, if Satan has risen up against himself and become divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.

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Wow, you people wrote a lot since I've last been here!

gospelmancan2 wrote:

A number of web sites discounting faith healing does not negate the truth of first hand documented
testimony.

They aren't just websites. They are websites with the titles of scientific studies performed by scientists, published in scientific journals. Each of those links presents the title of the report, the name of the scientific journal, the date it was published, the pages in which you can find the article and sometimes even the abstract giving you a taster of what they did.

Each one of those is a study performed using a large number of people, some over a period of years, done with a strict rigour.

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I know another woman who could barely walk due to a chronic neuro-muscular disease who was healed through prayer and it was medically verified that she no longer had the disease. It should be noted that there are no known cases of this happening in the medical community as this ailment never gets better and ends in
paralysis of the limbs and ultimately death.

If she was medically verified, then she would end up as a case within the medical community. Yet, I see no documentation of this, only your account.

If other people have done studies, citing their methods, you can repeat their studies and find similar answers. If not, then the study is rejected as fraud.

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I have seen crooked legs straighten out after years of being congenitally deformed. I have seen cancerous growths disappear in a second. One second there and the next second gone.
I have personally witnessed hundreds of these cases.

From the same healer? What's he doing in a Church? Send him to hospital where people need him.

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How can this be discounted? Maybe I am lying. I see no motive for me to do so. Maybe they were lying.

Maybe your last sentence has a point.

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I have seen too many before and after cases for that to be the case.

Yet, how can you prove that what you have seen is not a lie, perpetrated by so-called Christian healers that are no more can con-artists, tricking innocent Christians with false promises?

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I would challenge those out there with ailments to pray in the name of Jesus to be healed.

The study has been done before, and it showed no statistically reliable evidence that praying works.

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As for the pronouncements of the scientific community I would submit that they are afraid of what they cannot measure and would discount it. After all, science is only measurement of the natural world and the using of that measurement to further knowledge of properties of the natural universe that already exists. This can and has brought great advances in the physical sphere but cannot be stacked up against spiritual matters.

Isn't it convenient that spiritual matters cannot be defined by science through the way they have been defined by its proponents?

Spiritual matters seemed to fail all those children in one of the reports I linked to, in such a way that the authors started to be very worried by those children who could have been saved had their parents not relied solely on faith healing.

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Any lack of scientific measurement of faith healing is the problem of the scientists and not the problem of those who believe in healing.

Statistics may not be the most perfect science, but it is better than blind faith.

Did I quote the abstract from Hickey & Lyckholm's report where they state that over 200 children in the US have died from treatable illnesses as a result of their parents relying on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment? No? well here's the link to the abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15637946

If all the scientific evidence points in one direction, you cannot ignore it and claim that it is a fault on their behalf.

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I stopped bowing to the great god of science when I realized that Shakespeare was correct in writing
"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

There is no great god of science and anyone that thinks that science is a religion based on dogma is either basing their assumptions on people who shouldn't be scientists in the first place or are ignorant buffoons that know nothing of how science works.

Oh, and real life, you should be more careful with your quotations.

What you've committed right now is what could be classified as plagiarism. To properly quote the Bible, you must quote the Book, the Chapter number and the verse number along with the actual quote itself. It is also far more accepted if you also state the version of the Bible you are quoting from, like this:

Exodus 22:25 (New International Version)
"If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest."

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