Why we are not perfect

Allow me, Xigun.

real life wrote:

Xingu,

It matters not whether they knew or understood what death was.

If it didn't matter, why would God even bother to tell them that they "shall die" (Genesis 2:15-17) if they ate from The Tree? Don't you think that God's every word are important? Why would God even threaten them?

real life wrote:

The question was, were they capable of complying with the command 'Don't eat that' .

Apparently, they were not able to comply to the command given from God.

real life wrote:

Clearly they were capable of complying. They did not do so, however.

Why do you think they were not able to comply? And whose fault would that be?

real life wrote:

Also I would disagree that experience is the best form of learning.

If what you're saying is true, the whole learning system that society has implemented to this day, the one that teaches our children in school, is totally inappropriate. And one question, and how do you think we learn the things that we don't understand? It used to be by experience, but according to you, is not the "best way." If that's so, how is "the best way" to learn those things?

real life wrote:

Do you take your money and put it in investments that others have warned you are bad just because you need the experience of losing at a bad investment to really understand it?

But don't you learn how to take risks because of experience? You'd know what could happen to your money; you have heard what could happen to your money; you'd be familiar with the concept of losing money one way or the other, because you have found yourself without any money some period prior to your the actual moment of your "investment that others have warned you."

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xingu wrote:

By the way, I have a question for you. God told A&E that if they ate the apple they would die. How did they know what death was? There was no death in their time. Not only did they not know, from experience, what truth/lie was they didn't know death. They never saw it.

And as you should well know Real, experience is the best form of learning.

You assume that Adam and Eve had been alive for only a short period of time before the rebellion. It was some years. (I could make a good argument for at least thirty, but that's another issue.) They were certainly around long enough to see plants and animals die. And, what makes you assume that the God who gave Adam and Eve language could not communicate with them? Sounds more like xingu grasping for anything to make his point.

xingu wrote:

Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder.

This business about perfection is nonsense. It's like asking what is the perfect beer.

I'll tell you what the perfect beer is; it's the one I like.

I believe you are correct. Adam and Eve were perfect for living on earth. That was what they were promised and that was what they lost. To say that a God intelligent enough and powerful enough to have brought about such a creation would be unable to handle any eventuality is the height of credulity.

You don't have to believe the bible. Just believe that it says what it says.

BTW, the perfect beer:

http://www.concertsatmarymoor.com/images/mj_african_amber.gif

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You stated earlier that God did not train them properly.

God gave them a clear command.

They did not obey His command.

Do you, or do you not think Adam had the ability to comply with God's command?

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Jason Proudmoore wrote:

real life wrote:
Also I would disagree that experience is the best form of learning.

If what you're saying is true, the whole learning system that society has implemented to this day, the one that teaches our children in school, is totally inappropriate. And one question, and how do you think we learn the things that we don't understand? It used to be by experience, but according to you, is not the "best way." If that's so, how is "the best way" to learn those things?

You are correct that the public education system is totally inappropriate, but not because it teaches by experience. It is about as far removed from teaching kids what actual life experience will be like as is possible to imagine.

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

real life wrote:
Do you take your money and put it in investments that others have warned you are bad just because you need the experience of losing at a bad investment to really understand it?

But don't you learn how to take risks because of experience? You'd know what could happen to your money; you have heard what could happen to your money; you'd be familiar with the concept of losing money one way or the other, because you have found yourself without any money some period prior to your the actual moment of your "investment that others have warned you."

If you'd like for me to invest some of your money for you, my commission is a very large percentage but I think it will be good experience for you to try it out.

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real life wrote:

You are correct that the public education system is totally inappropriate, but not because it teaches by experience. It is about as far removed from teaching kids what actual life experience will be like as is possible to imagine.

But you haven't answered my question. What do you think is the "correct" way to educate children if not by experience, Real? (This should be interesting.)

real life wrote:

If you'd like for me to invest some of your money for you, my commission is a very large percentage but I think it will be good experience for you to try it out.

No, thank you. I wouldn't like you to invest my money. I have learned not to trust anybody with my pin number, by experience that is... Twisted Evil

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Neologist

Quote:

You assume that Adam and Eve had been alive for only a short period of time before the rebellion. It was some years. (I could make a good argument for at least thirty, but that's another issue.) They were certainly around long enough to see plants and animals die. And, what makes you assume that the God who gave Adam and Eve language could not communicate with them? Sounds more like xingu grasping for anything to make his point.

The Bible doesn't state the time between the Creation and the Fall. It's speculative.
Your comments on death poses a problem. You must understand that there are many different beliefs and Gods in the Christian religion. There are over 30,000 Christian sects worldwide. I can't make a statement that addresses all different beliefs.

So, when I say there was no death prior to the Fall I'm addressing those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible and believe that Tyrannosaurs rexs were vegetarians. They didn't eat meat until A&E ate the apple. If this doesn't make sense to you, believe me, it doesn't make sense to me either.

But it my impression that this is what Real believes and that is what I'm addressing.

Quote:

Adam and Eve were perfect for living on earth.

Was A&E perfect because they knew no evil? Did they become imperfect after they ate the apple?

If so then God is imperfect and is a sinner. Did we not acquire the knowledge of the Gods when Eve ate the apple?

Quote:

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Notice several things about this verse
1. There are many Gods, like the Greek and Roman religions.
2. God expelled them from the garden before they could eat from the tree of life. Eating from the tree of life would have allowed them to live forever.

Living forever and knowing good and evil would make them the same as the Gods. Was God showing his insecurity by expelling them from the garden? After all if they ate from the tree of life they would, in effect, be Gods. They would have the knowledge and the eternal life.

Quote:

To say that a God intelligent enough and powerful enough to have brought about such a creation would be unable to handle any eventuality is the height of credulity.

If God was intelligent enough to bring about the Creation do you not think he would be intelligent enough to understand that two naive people can be conned. We understand that today. We know people can be beguiled by charming and powerful individuals. Look what Hitler did to Germany.

But God did not understand that with A&E.

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MJB919 wrote:

Why we are not perfect

We are imperfect because perfection is a moving target. For example, a structure that is perfect for biting is imperfect for hearing. But over time, the jawbone of fishes evolved into the bones in our eardrums. Our biological history has seen quite a lot of such shifts in the purpose that biological structures have to be perfect for. As a result, many of our features are imperfect for what we currently use them for -- but much better, much more nearly perfect, for the tasks we may use them for in our biological future.

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along the lines that Thomas writes we come back again and again to the (in my mind) inane reverence for the logic of Plato/Aristotle. The very concept of "perfect" begs the question of reality. Nature (that which IS) vs Un-nature (perfection) that which ISN'T) Perfect is meta-physical.

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Real

Quote:

You stated earlier that God did not train them properly.

God gave them a clear command.

They did not obey His command.

Do you, or do you not think Adam had the ability to comply with God's command?

No, they did not.

Was it wrong to disobey God? YES

Did they know right from wrong? NO

Therefore if they didn't know it was wrong to disobey God why would God be so stupid as to think they would obey him.
He should have done to the Tree of Knowledge what he did to the Tree of Life after the Original Sin was committed; placed a cherubim with a flaming sword to guard it.

It matters little what command God gives, you must know right from wrong if your going to obey it.

You keep looking at this in terms of someone who knows and understands right from wrong; guilt from innocence.
They didn't know that.

Why do you think A&E covered themselves after they ate the apple? Because they felt guilt and shame.

Would they have felt guilt and shame for disobeying God? Of course not; that is not until they ate the apple.

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xingu wrote:

Neologist

Quote:
You assume that Adam and Eve had been alive for only a short period of time before the rebellion. It was some years. (I could make a good argument for at least thirty, but that's another issue.) They were certainly around long enough to see plants and animals die. And, what makes you assume that the God who gave Adam and Eve language could not communicate with them? Sounds more like xingu grasping for anything to make his point.

The Bible doesn't state the time between the Creation and the Fall. It's speculative.
Your comments on death poses a problem. You must understand that there are many different beliefs and Gods in the Christian religion. There are over 30,000 Christian sects worldwide. I can't make a statement that addresses all different beliefs.

So, when I say there was no death prior to the Fall I'm addressing those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible and believe that Tyrannosaurs rexs were vegetarians. They didn't eat meat until A&E ate the apple. If this doesn't make sense to you, believe me, it doesn't make sense to me either. . . .

You may choose to address those who claim the earth was created in six 24 hour days. But when you do so, you are in effect attacking a straw man. Prove it wrong and you accomplish nothing.

The same applies when you aver that God spoke to Adam and Eve in words they could not understand. Perhaps he didn't speak to them at all and Moses lied about it. Your logic is schizophrenic. You are attempting to use a tool you do not understand as an instrument to take itself apart. It won't work.

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xingu wrote:

Real

Quote:
You stated earlier that God did not train them properly.

God gave them a clear command.

They did not obey His command.

Do you, or do you not think Adam had the ability to comply with God's command?

No, they did not.

Was it wrong to disobey God? YES

Did they know right from wrong? NO

Therefore if they didn't know it was wrong to disobey God why would God be so stupid as to think they would obey him.
He should have done to the Tree of Knowledge what he did to the Tree of Life after the Original Sin was committed; placed a cherubim with a flaming sword to guard it.

It matters little what command God gives, you must know right from wrong if your going to obey it.

You keep looking at this in terms of someone who knows and understands right from wrong; guilt from innocence.
They didn't know that.

Why do you think A&E covered themselves after they ate the apple? Because they felt guilt and shame.

Would they have felt guilt and shame for disobeying God? Of course not; that is not until they ate the apple.

When and how do you think we learn right from wrong?

When does a child learn it and how? When his parents say 'Don't do that'. or 'Do that'.

God gave Adam and Eve a clear command.

You want to dance around this semantically and claim they didn't know right from wrong.

They knew what they were commanded to not do.

They did not obey.

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Jason Proudmoore wrote:

What do you think is the "correct" way to educate children if not by experience, Real? (This should be interesting.)

Yes it is interesting. And since you obviously don't understand this concept, I hope you aren't teaching children. I hope you dig ditches for a living, or something that doesn't affect people in a big way.

Do you think that experience is the best way to teach children about the effects of drunk driving, drug use, having sex with a partner infected with STD, stealing, lying, murder, rape, etc ?

Do you think they need to experience these things before they can understand why they are to be avoided?

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Real life, I'm going to try to explain to you the argument that I have established through a series of entries that have been posted on this thread so far.

This is what I posted previously, which states (clearly) that Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil prior to eating from the Tree.

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

And the Lord God said (After Adam and Eve ate from The Tree.), Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:...(Genesis 4:22).

This is my explanation.

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

The logic I'm trying to explain to you is simple: since God did not bother to grant Adam nor Eve with the understanding of good and evil, He should've expected the very obvious: They (Adam and Eve) just didn't know the property of obey a powerful being like a god. And God would have to be retarded, stupid, or naive for not knowing that. And if He knew that, He would've had to be pretty dumb to approve it. Because they (Adam and Eve) didn't know good from evil, God should've not expected any other behavior from the both of them. Simple.

This one is a pretty closed example that resembles the argument that I tirelessly want you to get into your head. See? And I never got an answer from you, from the question I asked you below. Do you want to continue avoiding them, real? If that's so, I don't know in what way that is going to help your argument.

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

And do you think your 2-year old should've been kicked out of your house when he first ate the cookies you told him not to eat while you weren't looking? Did you acknowledge that he didn't perceive the concept of obedience like a person who would distinguish right from wrong?

This is what you posted previously.

real life wrote:

I have to say that your concept of Adam as a brainless individual, unable to comply with a simple command is the most farfetched reading of Genesis imaginable. You ascribe to him capacity below that of a 2 year old or a retarded person and you don't even bat an eye at the comparison.

This is my answer to your post.

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

You don't seem to understand what I'm trying to explain to you in simple English, Real Life. What I'm trying to make you understand is this: (1) Adam and Eve had the capacity to obey laws (according to the action implied in the Bible, these individuals were not "brainless."). They followed the law until after the serpent persuaded them to eat from The Tree. (2) They did not know good from evil. Since they did not know good from evil, they didn't understand what was considered right from wrong, according to God's laws. (3) God didn't bother Himself to explain them what right and wrong were. Because God didn't explain them what right and wrong were, God should have not expected another behavior from the two of them (hence the logical example I have tried to explain to you with the orange). Now, tell me, is this just to you, to all humanity, to Adam and Eve?

I never said that the "public education system [was] totally inappropriate," real. Can you at least read?
This is what you wrote after such post.

real life wrote:

You are correct that the public education system is totally inappropriate, but not because it teaches by experience. It is about as far removed from teaching kids what actual life experience will be like as is possible to imagine.

This is the comment that, according to you, I say that school is inappropriate for children. Can you see the difference between what you wrote and my actual post?

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

If what you're saying is true, the whole learning system that society has implemented to this day, the one that teaches our children in school, is totally inappropriate.

This is what you wrote. And according to you I don't understand "this concept." I don't know what the hell you're talking about. But it is a lame defense mechanism from your part to avoid the obvious.

real life wrote:

Yes it is interesting. And since you obviously don't understand this concept, I hope you aren't teaching children. I hope you dig ditches for a living, or something that doesn't affect people in a big way.

This is the example I posted earlier, regarding your repetitive comment above. Do you think that my explanation is not clear enough? What is it that you don't understand, real? Even a three- year old would understand this.

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

But don't you learn how to take risks because of experience? You'd know what could happen to your money; you have heard what could happen to your money; you'd be familiar with the concept of losing money one way or the other, because you have found yourself without any money some period prior to your the actual moment of your "investment that others have warned you."

This is your most resent post, real. You either don't understand what I'm trying to tell you, are in a state of denial, or you have the IQ of a 2-year old. However, it doesn't take much to understand such simple logic, real. It is called "logical," something that is obvious. I will try to explain to you this concept of "experience" that you don't seem to quite grasp. If you understand what I'm going to explain to you, at least have some shame, decency, consideration, and courtesy to not question the obvious.

real life wrote:

Do you think that experience is the best way to teach children about the effects of drunk driving, drug use, having sex with a partner infected with STD, stealing, lying, murder, rape, etc? "

Children will learn to understand these entities directly or indirectly in their lives, regardless of public, private or any other form of education system. They will either experience them first hand, or they will simply watch it on TV and will understand (through their sense of reasoning) their properties.

real life wrote:

Do you think they need to experience these things before they can understand why they are to be avoided?

They will have to experience them first hand or someone else has to explain them to them in a way that they would understand. Nevertheless, there will be a point in which children will eventually learn them, no matter what. What I'm trying to explain to you, real, is that in order for human beings to understand things, we must experience them directly or indirectly. That is our nature. We don't have the information that includes all the intricacies of the universe written somewhere in our DNA. And God should've known that before kicking Adam and Eve out of paradise and condemning us all for His failure to understand our nature.

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Real

Quote:

You want to dance around this semantically and claim they didn't know right from wrong.

They knew what they were commanded to not do.

They did not obey.

And they didn't obey because they didn't know it was wrong to disobey. God should have known that and guarded the tree.

If A&E knew it was wrong to disobey the command they would feel guilt for disobeying God. But they felt no guilt until they ate the apple. Only after they ate the apple did they realize they did wrong and feel guilt for their actions.

Quote:

When and how do you think we learn right from wrong?

When does a child learn it and how? When his parents say 'Don't do that'. or 'Do that'.

One point your missing here; by your beliefs, not mine, all children are born with the guilt that came about by Eve's bite of the apple. Therefore if they do something against your wishes they will know it is wrong and feel guilty.

A&E did not have this advantage. Obeying a command is not something they could see as wrong. God could see it as wrong because God was as shortsighted as you in this manner. He to knew it was wrong to disobey him thus God could not understand why A&E would disobey him except that they were, what, disobedient, mean, unlawful, disrespectful, low-life red necks.

A&E could not be any of these things because they knew no evil, no deceitfulness or no disrespectfulness. As Neologist said;

Quote:

Adam and Eve were perfect for living on earth.

God was treating A&E like those who know the difference between right and wrong/good and evil. God should have realized that knowing good from evil is knowledge. Without that knowledge your ignorant. Ignorant people are easily fooled. A&E were fooled by the serpent because of their ignorance, not because they were mean, disrespectful or deceitful. That's why it was so wrong of God to punish them.

In this story it God who is wrong; God who is guilty of unjust punishment.

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Well that settles it. Xingu and Jason are smarter than God.

Has he come to you asking for advice?

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Jason Proudmoore wrote:

......They will have to experience them first hand or someone else has to explain them to them in a way that they would understand[/u][/i].........

emphasis mine

Now you're catching on. Experience is not the best way to learn. Listening to someone who knows better than you is a far superior method.

In Adam's case, God told him what to avoid. Eve's response to the serpent shows they knew very well that the tree was off limits.

Adam did not obey.

You want to blame God for that. That doesn't wash.

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Quote:

God was treating A&E like those who know the difference between right and wrong/good and evil. God should have realized that knowing good from evil is knowledge. Without that knowledge your ignorant. Ignorant people are easily fooled. A&E were fooled by the serpent because of their ignorance, not because they were mean, disrespectful or deceitful. That's why it was so wrong of God to punish them.

In this story it God who is wrong; God who is guilty of unjust punishment.

xingu,

So are you saying then if your five year old child who ways playing in your front yard started wandering towards the street while you turned away for just a minute, after you'd told him not to go beyond a certain point, you would not punish him?

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xingu wrote:

Real

Quote:
You want to dance around this semantically and claim they didn't know right from wrong.

They knew what they were commanded to not do.

They did not obey.

..............If A&E knew it was wrong to disobey the command they would feel guilt for disobeying God. But they felt no guilt until they ate the apple. Only after they ate the apple did they realize they did wrong and feel guilt for their actions.

Quote:
When and how do you think we learn right from wrong?

When does a child learn it and how? When his parents say 'Don't do that'. or 'Do that'.

One point your missing here; by your beliefs, not mine, all children are born with the guilt that came about by Eve's bite of the apple. Therefore if they do something against your wishes they will know it is wrong and feel guilty.

A&E did not have this advantage..........

It's not a 'feeling of guilt' that tells you what you should or should not do. We don't need an emotional rush from Dr Phil to tell us what we should or shouldn't do. (At least I don't)

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neologist wrote:

Well that settles it. Xingu and Jason are smarter than God.

Knowledge and intelligence are two different things, neologist. And the idea of believing in a god who behaves like the gods of the Bible and The Koran goes beyond absurd; it is a tremendous shame.

neologist wrote:

Has he come to you asking for advice?

No, but he should.

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real life wrote:

Jason Proudmoore wrote:
......They will have to experience them first hand or someone else has to explain them to them in a way that they would understand[/u][/i].........

emphasis mine

Good for you. You learned how to underline.

real life wrote:

Now you're catching on.

I thought I was there all alone.

real life wrote:

Experience is not the best way to learn.

Says who? The Bible or the Koran? So, the best way to learn things is by imperical knowledge, according to you? So, if I told a small child that Mickey Mouse is flesh and blood (that he actually exists), should he believe me then? I think that you would defend yourself better if you stopped your brain from telling your fingers to type more nonsense.

real life wrote:

Listening to someone who knows better than you is a far superior method.

And how would you even keep believing that "someone" if you don't have the capacity to understand right from wrong, are kept innocent? How would you distinguish the one who's telling the truth and the one who doesn't?

real life wrote:

In Adam's case, God told him what to avoid.

And the serpent told him the opposite. What's your point?

real life wrote:

Eve's response to the serpent shows they knew very well that the tree was off limits.

They knew what they were told, that The Tree was off limits; they were given a limit...not explained... but told. How is this knowing the difference between what is right and what is wrong?

real life wrote:

Adam did not obey.

What's your point?

real life wrote:

You want to blame God for that.

I've been doing that for quite some time now.

real life wrote:

That doesn't wash.

But it does. You're just either too scared to question your god, or too stupid to know the difference.

PS: Why did you even emphasized my previous quote above? How does that serve you in your argument?

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