Why we are not perfect

Why do you claim Adam could not obey God's command?

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I have a seemingly random question which still links in with this topic. Why is God often considered "merciful" by so many? This question comes with no bias on my part, I'm genuinely interested in the answer, whatever that may be. I guess Christianity is first on my mind but only because I'm more accustomed to said religion than any others.

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Jason Proudmoore wrote:

neologist wrote:
Xing, surely they knew the difference between correct and incorrect.

I beg to differ, niologist. Anybody who has studied or at least has some knowledge of literature, would consider the following passage as a counter- argument of your claim. They (Adam and Eve) did not know good and evil before they ate from The Tree, according to the Bible. Check it out:

And the Lord God said (After Adam and Eve ate from The Tree.), Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:...(Genesis 4:22).

Good<>evil is not the same dichotomy as correct<>incorrect. It is correct that if you poke a sharp stick in your eye, it will hurt. Correct but not necessarily good.

Jason Proudmoore wrote:

neologist, don't you think that God is quite naive (or stupid) by demanding something that He should've known was impossible? If you squeezed an orange, would you expect orange juice to come out or apple juice? Even the simplest of humans would know this, let alone a god.

I can't follow this line of logic at all. What point are you trying to make?

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Since God made you, He has a right to require anything He should choose, including obedience. Just as you have the right to do with what you possess whatever you wish.

By that logic you can do anything to your kids you want. You can sexually abuse them, beat them, starve them. They're not humans, they're property. You made them, you own them.

Therefore A&E should not be treated as humans or with respect. They're God's property and he may abuse them to whatever extent he chooses.

And after reading the Bible you will see that he does just that.

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Your mind is unique, xing.

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Quote:

Good<>evil is not the same dichotomy as correct<>incorrect. It is correct that if you poke a sharp stick in your eye, it will hurt. Correct but not necessarily good.

Poking a stick in ones eye or jumping off a cliff are far different from eating an apple.

It's a pity God could not set an example of decency in this incident. He put two very naive people in a garden that was occupied by a devious serpent. God did not in any way train, inform or instruct A&E about what the serpent would try to do or how to behave towards it. Even if God did try to tell them they would not understand because they didn't know good from evil, right from wrong.

They were incapable of understanding the serpent was lying because God told them nothing and they knew nothing.

So when the serpent did entice Eve to eat the apple what should have God done. If God had an ounce of decency in him he would have taken responsibility for the incident.

"Oh my God", he would have exclaimed.
"What have I done? I accept full responsibility. I should have told you about that damn snake. I so sorry I wasn't here to help you."

But that's not what God did, is it? God punishes the snake (well deserved) but he also punishes Eve. If I remember correctly he makes childbearing painful for her and he tells her she's incapable of existence without the supervision of a man, thus leading to sexism.

With a God like that to set the example its no wonder humans are so screwed up.

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
Since God made you, He has a right to require anything He should choose, including obedience. Just as you have the right to do with what you possess whatever you wish.

By that logic you can do anything to your kids you want. You can sexually abuse them, beat them, starve them. They're not humans, they're property. You made them, you own them.

Therefore A&E should not be treated as humans or with respect. They're God's property and he may abuse them to whatever extent he chooses.

And after reading the Bible you will see that he does just that.

Not at all.

Parents do not 'create' children in the same way as God created man.

Parents are accountable to God.

God is accountable to no one.

Parents are given children as a stewardship responsibility, that is, they do not 'own' them, but are charged with seeing to their well being.

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The Bible does not teach that God abuses people in whatever way He chooses, but instead shows many times that God is gracious.

God owes us nothing. Not even an explanation does He owe to us.

But God causes our obedience to bring us benefit. He did not have to do so. He could have, with perfect justice, commanded obedience for obedience sake with no benefit. But He did not.

Many examples in the Bible of people getting much better than they deserve.

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God did tell Adam exactly what to do -- "Don't eat that." Adam disobeyed and the rest , you see.

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neologist wrote:

Good<>evil is not the same dichotomy as correct<>incorrect. It is correct that if you poke a sharp stick in your eye, it will hurt. Correct but not necessarily good.

I don't think I quite get you here.

neologist wrote:

I can't follow this line of logic at all. What point are you trying to make?

The logic I'm trying to explain to you is simple: since God did not bother to grant Adam nor Eve with the understanding of good and evil, He should've expected the very obvious: They (Adam and Eve) just didn't know the property of obey a powerful being like a god. And God would have to be retarded, stupid, or naive for not knowing that. And if He knew that, He would've had to be pretty dumb to approve it. Because they (Adam and Eve) didn't know good from evil, God should've not expected any other behavior from the both of them. Simple.

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But the only thing I like about the Koran so far is that it doesn't blame Adam and Eve for disobeying God; it only blames Satan for persuading them to eat from The Tree.

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Jason Proudmoore wrote:

neologist wrote:
Good<>evil is not the same dichotomy as correct<>incorrect. It is correct that if you poke a sharp stick in your eye, it will hurt. Correct but not necessarily good.

I don't think I quite get you here.

neologist wrote:
I can't follow this line of logic at all. What point are you trying to make?

The logic I'm trying to explain to you is simple: since God did not bother to grant Adam nor Eve with the understanding of good and evil, He should've expected the very obvious: They (Adam and Eve) just didn't know the property of obey a powerful being like a god. And God would have to be retarded, stupid, or naive for not knowing that. And if He knew that, He would've had to be pretty dumb to approve it. Because they (Adam and Eve) didn't know good from evil, God should've not expected any other behavior from the both of them. Simple.

Do you really think that Adam was so brainless that he couldn't obey simple instructions like

"Don't eat that" (what God told him to do)

Come on now. Adam was an intelligent being. God gave him charge of the garden to keep it (Gen 2:15) and he named all the animals (Gen 2:20)

You cannot seriously suggest that he lacked the ability to comply with a simple command like "Don't eat that". My 2 year can do that . He may not know why I don't want him to eat it, and it's not vital that he does. He fully meets the need of the moment by refraining from eating what I warn him not to eat.

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real life wrote:

Do you really think that Adam was so brainless that he couldn't obey simple instructions like

"Don't eat that" (what God told him to do)

yes

real life wrote:

Come on now. Adam was an intelligent being. God gave him charge of the garden to keep it (Gen 2:15) and he named all the animals (Gen 2:20)

Intelligence doesn't have to do with anything. People can be intelligent and not know certain things. If I woke up one day not knowing good from evil, and someone demanded me not to do a specific thing because such thing would be bad, and then someone else tells me the opposite, what natural capacity would give me the knowledge [I don't have] to distinguish what I have to do versus what I don't? So what if he named all the animals? Where is the intellectual property in naming all the animals? Even a retarded person could've named all the animals (think about it).

real life wrote:

You cannot seriously suggest that he lacked the ability to comply with a simple command like "Don't eat that".

Why not? Small children do it all the time. They don't know what's good and what's bad.

real life wrote:

My 2 year can do that . He may not know why I don't want him to eat it, and it's not vital that he does. He fully meets the need of the moment by refraining from eating what I warn him not to eat.

And do you think your 2-year old should've been kicked out of your house when he first ate the cookies you told him not to eat while you weren't looking? Did you acknowledge that he didn't perceive the concept of obedience like a person who would distinguish right from wrong?

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Hi Jason,

I have to say that your concept of Adam as a brainless individual, unable to comply with a simple command is the most farfetched reading of Genesis imaginable. You ascribe to him capacity below that of a 2 year old or a retarded person and you don't even bat an eye at the comparison.

So you want to give Adam ignorance as an excuse for not obeying God.

So what excuse will you use? You certainly have more capacity that what you give Adam credit for, don't you? What excuse do you use for not obeying God?

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Much of what 'good vs evil' , 'right vs wrong' is is simply causal reward/punishment(ie it is wrong to jump off a cliff, it is wrong to touch a hot stove). The rest is subjective value judgement, and must be taught.
To mindlessly obey is something that requires much instruction, or brainwashing if you will.

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Doktor S wrote:

To mindlessly obey is something that requires much instruction, or brainwashing if you will.

Woof woof woof!

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real life wrote:

Hi Jason,

I have to say that your concept of Adam as a brainless individual, unable to comply with a simple command is the most farfetched reading of Genesis imaginable. You ascribe to him capacity below that of a 2 year old or a retarded person and you don't even bat an eye at the comparison.

You don't seem to understand what I'm trying to explain to you in simple English, Real Life. What I'm trying to make you understand is this: (1) Adam and Eve had the capacity to obey laws (according to the action implied in the Bible, these individuals were not "brainless."). They followed the law until after the serpent persuaded them to eat from The Tree. (2) They did not know good from evil. Since they did not know good from evil, they didn't understand what was considered right from wrong, according to God's laws. (3) God didn't bother Himself to explain them what right and wrong were. Because God didn't explain them what right and wrong were, God should have not expected another behavior from the two of them (hence the logical example I have tried to explain to you with the orange). Now, tell me, is this just to you, to all humanity, to Adam and Eve?

real life wrote:

So you want to give Adam ignorance as an excuse for not obeying God.

If I didn't know what right and wrong were, what do you think this state of mind would be, real life?

real life wrote:

So what excuse will you use?

Not knowing right from wrong.

real life wrote:

You certainly have more capacity that what you give Adam credit for, don't you?

I will assume that you meant that I have "more capacity" to understand these two entities (right and wrong).

real life wrote:

What excuse do you use for not obeying God?

The same "excuse use" for not believing in fairies.

You either don't want to understand this, or you are in constant fear of questioning the Lord's will.

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Real

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Parents do not 'create' children in the same way as God created man.

What does that have to do with not accepting responsibility of one's actions? What does that have to do with treating humans in an unfair manner?

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Parents are accountable to God.

And children are accountable to parents. But that does not give the right for parents to be unfair and unjust to their children, unless those are the values they want to teach them.

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God is accountable to no one.

But that doesn't mean he may behave in a cruel and unjust manner. We humans have free will. Free will means freedom of thought, freedom to question, freedom to doubt and freedom to judge. If God is being proclaimed as perfect love, of having so much love for his creation that the poor fellow sacrificed his only son then don't you think he would treat them in a fair and just manner? Or is that to mush to ask of God?

If God is so perfect in every way than should not his behavior be used as an example for us?

One thing I have observed in the Bible is God is extremely harsh in his punishment of people. Do you suppose we should follow his example, since he is perfect and does no wrong, and punish in the same manner as God? Or do you think we should be better than God and be more humane?

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Parents are given children as a stewardship responsibility, that is, they do not 'own' them, but are charged with seeing to their well being.

So therefore you are implying that once God created humans he had no responsibility to seeing for their well being. He had no responsibility to train them, protect them from serpents or to be fair and just with them.

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The Bible does not teach that God abuses people in whatever way He chooses, but instead shows many times that God is gracious.

The Bible also shows that God abuses humans in the most inhumane way. If you like I can give some examples. These would be examples in which if humans behaved towards humans in the way God did we would persecute them, vilify them or even execute them. But when God behaves in this same manner we praise him. It's nice to know that your God believes in double standards and hypocrisy.

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God owes us nothing. Not even an explanation does He owe to us.

If God owes us nothing, not even an explanation as to his bad behavior then he should not expect much from us. After all if he is going to pawn himself off as being perfect then he shouldn't be upset if we copy his behavior.

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But God causes our obedience to bring us benefit. He did not have to do so. He could have, with perfect justice, commanded obedience for obedience sake with no benefit. But He did not.

But God does not bring us benefits. Many times in the Bible he has bought us great suffering for no other reason then we didn't properly praise him, that we looked to other Gods and didn't fan his ego. He slaughtered children for slights their parents did.

God punishes people for practicing their free will. He punishes them for practicing freedom of religion, of expression. God doesn't like freedom.

I suppose massive slaughters of mankind is a benefit because it shows how much contempt God has for mankind. We will obey, we will not question him and we will never judge his actions. If we do we will allow ourselves and our children to be killed in whatever method he may choose.

Your God reminds me of what it is to be a slave to the ancient Middle East potentates. Slaves obey and do not question. Slaves can expect harsh punishment for the slightest infraction of rules. Slaves must never judge their master. Slaves must show absolute loyalty to their master. Slaves should beg for mercy and hope they will receive it.

By your belief we are not free. We are his slaves. We don't question, we don't judge; we just obey.

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Many examples in the Bible of people getting much better than they deserve.

And many examples of people being unjustly slaughtered by the most perfect God of the Bible.

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God did tell Adam exactly what to do -- "Don't eat that." Adam disobeyed and the rest , you see.

It was Eve who disobeyed. Adam followed. They disobeyed because God was lazy and did not give them proper training and supervision.

By the way, I have a question for you. God told A&E that if they ate the apple they would die. How did they know what death was? There was no death in their time. Not only did they not know, from experience, what truth/lie was they didn't know death. They never saw it.

And as you should well know Real, experience is the best form of learning.

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why we are not perfect?

does this have something to do with free will?

in time we will be perfect...

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I don't think it anything to do with free will.

It has to do with the fact that there is no such thing as perfect.

No one can define it. It is subjective. Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder.

This business about perfection is nonsense. It's like asking what is the perfect beer.

I'll tell you what the perfect beer is; it's the one I like.

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Xingu,

It matters not whether they knew or understood what death was.

The question was, were they capable of complying with the command 'Don't eat that' .

Clearly they were capable of complying. They did not do so, however.

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Also I would disagree that experience is the best form of learning.

Do you take your money and put it in investments that others have warned you are bad just because you need the experience of losing at a bad investment to really understand it?

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Real

And the serpent said you may eat that and you will not die. They ate and did not die.

Why would they have to believe one over the other? Because it would be wrong to disobey God?

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Why we are not perfect

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