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Why we are not perfect

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jun, 2005 08:14 pm
xingu wrote:
Fortunately, I don't believe in the Bible (the reason being is it makes no sense). That allows me to have an open mind and question everything. I have the freedom to choose what makes sense to me and not be blinded by irrational dogma.
It is quite true that disbelief gives a certain freedom
0 Replies
 
fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 01:06 am
neologist wrote:
Humans were created with physical and moral perfection (and free will). The disobedience of the Edenic pair caused them to lose that perfection so that it could not be passed on to their children.

If you believe the bible, that is.


I contend that if anything is created to be perfect, a defining aspect of its perfectness would involve its inability to be (or become) imperfect.

If we were created as perfect in God's view, then part of that perfection would have to be our ability to resist evil. If we could not resist evil, then of course we could not be perfect. (Grant me the fact that God wants us to resist evil). If Adam and Eve had the perfect ability to resist evil, presumably we would all still be living in the garden of Eden.

He must have concluded that a human being who is not capable of evil would not be perfect, otherwise he would not have made us this way. Therefore he must have granted us the ability to commit evil acts.

So either:
1) God was incapable of creating a perfect being according to his wants, or
2) God intentionally created us with the ability to commit evil

Either way, how can he blame us for his mistake?
So he could play out his little game, with little remorse for the hapless beings unlucky enough to be created (and cursed) by him?

In any case, it would seem that a perfect God would forgive his children for their sins, as he teaches us to forgive each other. Since I'm not currently living in Eden, apparently Adam and Eve have not yet been forgiven.

Maybe it is God who is imperfect? Or maybe the Bible is not a literal history of the human race.
(Either way, I'm having fun talking about it. Smile)
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 05:13 am
Quote:
If we were created as perfect in God's view, then part of that perfection would have to be our ability to resist evil.


Even if one took the argument that Adam and Eve were fooled by the serpent into exposing themselves to evil, a perfect human would obey God's commands without question. They would never have been fooled.

Imperfect humans can be fooled and imperfect humans would not obey God's commands without question.

A&E were not perfect.
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fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 05:41 am
xingu wrote:
Quote:
If we were created as perfect in God's view, then part of that perfection would have to be our ability to resist evil.


Even if one took the argument that Adam and Eve were fooled by the serpent into exposing themselves to evil, a perfect human would obey God's commands without question. They would never have been fooled.

Imperfect humans can be fooled and imperfect humans would not obey God's commands without question.

A&E were not perfect.
I think we agree.

I wonder what Neologist has to say though. He usually has something pretty interesting to add.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 07:29 am
You may have left out the concept of free will. Would you really wish to be a perfect robot?
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 09:03 am
Quote:
You may have left out the concept of free will.


Interesting. How can one be perfect and have free will? A&E had free will and the result was Eve using her free will to eat the fruit of knowledge.

Perfection gives little, if any, leeway for deviation. You are either perfect or your not. Free will allows, even encourages, deviation. But deviation leads to imperfection. So God of the Bible, either through incompetence or meanness, set up a self-destructing system in A&E. They were created perfect but by giving them free will they were given the means to break down, or to become imperfect. Once they became imperfect God punished them (for using the free will he provided them) and all of their descendants.

Engineers like him make rockets crash.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 09:26 am
How could life be perfect without free will?
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shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 09:52 am
How do you know that your free will isnt Gods will too?

Rolling Eyes
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 12:39 pm
Quote:
How could life be perfect without free will?


How can it be with free will? Eve used her free will to eat the fruit. BINGO-imperfection.

Quote:
How do you know that your free will isnt Gods will too?


Was it God's will to have Eve eat the fruit? If Eve had not been given free will she would not have been able to make the choice. Free will means allowing us the freedom to choose. So is God giving us the right to choose but allowing us a very limited range of choices? Remember, perfection is a very narrow band that allows little flexibility. Under God's plan of perfection what would free will be used for without fear of our descendants being punished for eternity; selecting which praises of God we may want to use at a given time; staying ignorant?
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shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 02:36 pm
First we must realise that we have our own personal will.
Its very important to feel as an independant autonome man in these days...This we call it:to build an Individuality.
Then we will be pushed by evolutionnary force to realise and to merge with Gods Will Power...
It is a perfectly natural process.
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fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 04:27 pm
neologist wrote:
How could life be perfect without free will?


The point is that God created humans knowing full well that they would use free will to subvert his demands. How did he know they would abuse the power? Because he gave them the capability, and he has the power to see the consequences. Then, after they did exactly what He knew they would, he punished them AND their children.

Why the children?? We weren't even born! Why didn't he just kill Adam and Eve and start over? I'm sure that at least SOME of us would have listened to God. Especially if he's shouting in our ears not to do things. Instead, he unjustly punished all of us for something we did not do.

I feel that God has been misrepresented. Surely He would know that eternal punishment with no chance of reform serves no real purpose. He has been portrayed as petty, childish, unjust, and generally an unpleasant guy. Why?

Because for so many years, religion equaled power. Holy men used people for their own devices. Especially before most people had access to the Bible, it was used to gain power. The best way to gain this power is to play on people's weaknesses.

Guilt, shame, anxiety, fear... These are all very powerful emotions. The Bible plays on all of these fears mercilessly. If I was God, I would be really, really pissed off right now.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2005 11:10 pm
Just because God is capable of foreknowledge, does not mean he would use it. When I first started studying this situation, I wondered why God would time the rebellion at the exact moment when it would hurt us the most. The answer is that the timing was Satan's.

He undoubtedly hoped that God would either be forced to forgive Adam and Eve's sin or destroy them outright. Either course would have been a defeat of God's purpose.

Instead God allowed the rebellion to continue. He gave Satan (what seems to us an interminable) time to prove his implied charges: that God did not have the right to set standards; that mankind would be better off charting their own course;and that humans would only serve God out of selfishness.

Additionally, his forbearance allowed for us to be born.

I'm glad I was born. Are you glad you were born?
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shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2005 01:31 am
Yes Life is a precious gift and of course happiness is the far most important thing to enjoy It.
I agree with you...
Mostly people do think life has been given to them like a kind of everlasting picnic where we drink,eat ang chat.
I do believe life is not only that type of enjoyments which are ephemeral and leave us usually unhappy.
True hapinness is for me expansion in the vast infinite.
Love and spiriutality are indeed good paths but all ways are good even those where we suffer the most (worldly enjoyments).
The Awakening comes when one is ready and discontant with his pitty situation.
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fredjones
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2005 02:37 am
neologist wrote:
Just because God is capable of foreknowledge, does not mean he would use it. When I first started studying this situation, I wondered why God would time the rebellion at the exact moment when it would hurt us the most. The answer is that the timing was Satan's.


Well, the creation of Satan is yet another example of an imperfect design. God allows Satan to exist. In fact, he gave Satan a domain to rule of his own. He has rewarded Satan's sinful nature with power, and souls to feed his lust. God can stop Satan any time he wants, but he chooses not to.

neologist wrote:
He undoubtedly hoped that God would either be forced to forgive Adam and Eve's sin or destroy them outright. Either course would have been a defeat of God's purpose.

Why isn't forgiveness part of God's purpose? Doesn't Jesus teach us that God will forgive our sins? If God refuses to forgive, then we are in big trouble.

neologist wrote:
Instead God allowed the rebellion to continue. He gave Satan (what seems to us an interminable) time to prove his implied charges: that God did not have the right to set standards; that mankind would be better off charting their own course;and that humans would only serve God out of selfishness.

In the meantime God allows his creation to suffer needlessly. Kind of like a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of mentality.

neologist wrote:
Additionally, his forbearance allowed for us to be born.

I'm glad I was born. Are you glad you were born?

I don't remember what it was like to not be born. Maybe it was a lot better. Who knows? Wink

In the end, nothing that has ever happened in the world has been against God's will. If he allows evil to happen, it is because he wants it to happen. Either that or he is incapable of stopping it.

Doesn't the Bible just seem to explain our creation just a bit too conveniently? The Bible has plenty of good things to say about morality, but I do not trust it as a history book.
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shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2005 04:46 am
I am not particullary a jewish or a christian in my convictions but I red the Bible.
What is interisting in this symphatic books, it is especially the teachings about mens behaviour,mentallity,impulses and instincts.This we call it Wisdom...
All this through stories and events!!!Great Laughing
New testament is relating the life of a spiritual seeker who found God and worked for Him for some years and for the benefit of the whole humanity.
This is indeed a true sacrifice and I believe the study of Jesus life and appliying his experience in our own life lead directly to live a life of quality warranted by God Himself.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2005 09:13 am
The termination of Satan and restoration of the earth are a sure hope told in the bible.

Satan, like humans, has free will.

Don't leave the womb without it.
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shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2005 01:50 am
Satan is nothing else but Saturn as well as Lucifer who is Venus (lucis-light
ferre-to bring in latin).
Intelligent People stop being childish and immature!
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2005 08:40 am
The etymology of the word Satan is another subject.

Would you have booked passage on RMS Satanic?
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shiyacic aleksandar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2005 08:52 am
Neo,believe me or not that type of people would really believe I am the one they pretend to follow if I tell them this.
They will wether adore me,or be scared to death! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2005 09:05 am
Folks are sometimes scared of me because, even though I am over 60 years old, I still have upper arms as large as many people's thighs.

I am also uglier than both Frank and Setanta combined.

But Joe Sixpack and I throw a mean picnic.http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cheers.gif
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