Why we are not perfect

Quote:

Eve's response to the serpent shows plainly that they understood very well that the Tree was off limits.

But since they had no concept of right or wrong they would not understand that what they were doing was wrong.

It reminds me of a kid being chastised by his teacher for spelling a word wrong.

"Why didn't you look it up in the dictionary?" asks the teacher.

The boy replies, "Because I didn't know the word was misspelled so why would I look it up?"

Adam and Eve didn't know disobeying God was wrong because wrong was unknown to them. If they didn't know what wrong was why would they not believe the serpent?

They had no choice but to believe the serpent. They would have to believe everything that was told them because lying, deceit and treachery was unknown to them.

If fault is to be placed on anyone it would have to be God. Certainly he can't be so stupid as to think that two humans, totally devoid of any concept of wrong or evil, would not be susceptible to anyone who approached them. So God left them alone in the garden with a serpent knowing full well that they had no defense (knowing good from evil; right from wrong) against this serpent.

And what does God do? He blames Adam and Eve and punishes their descendants when all along it was his fault for not properly supervising them. It would be no different then parents allowing their four year old girl play alone in a park while they go off and see a movie.

God was blaming and punishing others for his own failings.

No matter how you look at it; poor supervision and failing to accept responsibility for his mistake, God is wrong.

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Terry wrote:

We are not perfect because evolution does not demand perfection

Yah but my wife demands perfection Shocked

As well, she says she is never wrong Rolling Eyes

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Hi xingu,
There are so many logical fallacies in the Bible.

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shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

There are three levels of truth: fact, truth and absolute truth.

Where did you get all this? I've always known that fact and truth go hand by hand. Truth is what is not a lie. Fact is something that is presented as being true, an occurence. And "absolute truth"? Something that is not a lie is not absolute truth, or is there a little lie in that absolute truth?

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

To speak according to what one has seen is to merely state a fact. Suppose I see you wearing a white dress and say "you are wearing a white dress", this becomes a statement of a fact. Later, at home, you may wear a blue dress. Then what I had said earlier will not hold good anymore.

How come the fact that the individual who wore a white dress "will not hold good anymore"? Why not? The fact that such person wore a white dress holds true, even if decided to wear a red dress later on. It would be a fact.

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

Thus, a fact is subject to change.

How so? How can this be? So, an occurrence stops being a fact if something else happens? It would change the state that such event happened?

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

Truth on the other hand does not change with time. A person may change any number of dresses. But, the person, as such, remains the same.

What? So, the person who wore the white dress wasn't a fact?

shiyacic aleksandar wrote:

Thus, truth is the same at all times. Absolute truth, however, relates to the self(Soul) which is changeless and eternal, unlike the body or mind that are subject to change. It transcends both good and evil. It is described as attributeless, pure, eternal, permanent and unsullied.

How can this be absolute truth if you can't even show any evidence of such thing existing? But still, you make a good poet.

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......not perfect for what?

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Man is not perfect because Love has not been perfected in us.

Perfect love casts out all fear.

Love is perfect in the savior Jesus Christ.

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
Eve's response to the serpent shows plainly that they understood very well that the Tree was off limits.

But since they had no concept of right or wrong they would not understand that what they were doing was wrong.

It reminds me of a kid being chastised by his teacher for spelling a word wrong.

"Why didn't you look it up in the dictionary?" asks the teacher.

The boy replies, "Because I didn't know the word was misspelled so why would I look it up?"

Adam and Eve didn't know disobeying God was wrong because wrong was unknown to them. If they didn't know what wrong was why would they not believe the serpent?

They had no choice but to believe the serpent. They would have to believe everything that was told them because lying, deceit and treachery was unknown to them.

If fault is to be placed on anyone it would have to be God. Certainly he can't be so stupid as to think that two humans, totally devoid of any concept of wrong or evil, would not be susceptible to anyone who approached them. So God left them alone in the garden with a serpent knowing full well that they had no defense (knowing good from evil; right from wrong) against this serpent.

And what does God do? He blames Adam and Eve and punishes their descendants when all along it was his fault for not properly supervising them. It would be no different then parents allowing their four year old girl play alone in a park while they go off and see a movie.

God was blaming and punishing others for his own failings.

No matter how you look at it; poor supervision and failing to accept responsibility for his mistake, God is wrong.

Nice avatar, xing.

You appear to be like the student who, once corrected, continues to spell the word as he pleases.

Adam and Eve may not have been able to judge good and bad, but they certainly must have been able to appreciate the dichotomy. Their choice shows their lack of appreciation for the benevolence and sovereignty of God.

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Poetic words there Bartikus. Besides other pretty words in books, can you support these claims?

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Quote:

Their choice shows their lack of appreciation for the benevolence and sovereignty of God.

I disagree. If A&E knew no wrong then they could do anything. The defense mechanism (knowing wrong) is not there.

If failing to appreciate the benevolence and sovereignty of God is wrong they would not know this; nor would they understand it.

Your viewing A&E as seeing the world through your eyes. They don't see the world as we do because they have no understand of right and wrong, no understanding of rules. They are like little children that have had no input.

As long as you fail to understand what it's like to live in an environment of not having any idea of wrong or evil you will never understand why A&E ate the apple. You have to think as they thought and picture the world through their eyes. That's difficult to do.

So this comes back to God's faulty behavior. He should have realized that they would be susceptible to the serpent and maintained tighter supervision over them. But God lacked vision and didn't see this.

Even after they ate the apple God should have realized it was his fault for keeping them ignorant and not watching them. But God refused to accept any blame for this incident. This shows another great flaw in God's character. He can't accept responsibility for his own actions. He blames others for his mistakes. He's not perfect.

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Xing, surely they knew the difference between correct and incorrect.

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Why would they? They knew no evil. Incorrect is wrong. They had no concept of right and wrong.

Besides, why would they not believe the serpent? Why would a small child not believe a charming but dirty old man who offers her candy?

Even today we have people who know good and evil being conned by charming con artist?

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Xingu's Edenic scenario:

Adam: Jumping off cliffs is fun. Go ahead.

Eve: OK.

SPLAT!

Adam: Oh, sorry. I didn't know the difference between correct and incorrect.

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Xingu,

When God clearly told Adam that they shouldn't, how can you possibly say 'they didn't know they shouldn't' ?

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Xingu's Edenic scenario:

Adam: Jumping off cliffs is fun. Go ahead.

Eve: OK.

SPLAT!

Adam: Oh, sorry. I didn't know the difference between correct and incorrect.

First off how do you know there were any cliffs?
Second they didn't know the apple would bring harm. They trusted the serpent. And wouldn't they?

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Quote:

When God clearly told Adam that they shouldn't, how can you possibly say 'they didn't know they shouldn't' ?

God said they shouldn't because if they did they would die. The serpent said they would gain knowledge and they would not die. Why should they not believe the serpent? They had no idea what right/wrong and good/evil was.

Now God knew of the serpent and knew of the nieve, unknowing ways of A&E. They were as unknowing and innocent as a small child. So for God to leave them alone and assume they could not be enticed by the serpent was really dumb on God's part, as events proved.

But God was not good enough to accept blame for his failings, his lack of responsibility. He blamed A&E. Actually he blamed Eve and placed the burden of punishment on her.

God was very unfair and unjust in this situation. He was just plain mean.

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neologist wrote:

Xing, surely they knew the difference between correct and incorrect.

I beg to differ, niologist. Anybody who has studied or at least has some knowledge of literature, would consider the following passage as a counter- argument of your claim. They (Adam and Eve) did not know good and evil before they ate from The Tree, according to the Bible. Check it out:

And the Lord God said (After Adam and Eve ate from The Tree.), Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:...(Genesis 4:22).

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
When God clearly told Adam that they shouldn't, how can you possibly say 'they didn't know they shouldn't' ?

God said they shouldn't because if they did they would die. The serpent said they would gain knowledge and they would not die. Why should they not believe the serpent? They had no idea what right/wrong and good/evil was.

Now God knew of the serpent and knew of the nieve, unknowing ways of A&E. They were as unknowing and innocent as a small child. So for God to leave them alone and assume they could not be enticed by the serpent was really dumb on God's part, as events proved.

But God was not good enough to accept blame for his failings, his lack of responsibility. He blamed A&E. Actually he blamed Eve and placed the burden of punishment on her.

God was very unfair and unjust in this situation. He was just plain mean.

What God required of them was obedience.

God said don't.

They did.

How complicated is that?

God was not requiring them to know something they didn't know.

They knew they were told not to.

When you instruct your kids "Don't" , you are not asking them to understand everything you understand.

Obedience, for their own benefit, is what you are requiring.

The issue is obedience, not understanding.

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real life wrote:

xingu wrote:
Quote:
When God clearly told Adam that they shouldn't, how can you possibly say 'they didn't know they shouldn't' ?

God said they shouldn't because if they did they would die. The serpent said they would gain knowledge and they would not die. Why should they not believe the serpent? They had no idea what right/wrong and good/evil was.

Now God knew of the serpent and knew of the nieve, unknowing ways of A&E. They were as unknowing and innocent as a small child. So for God to leave them alone and assume they could not be enticed by the serpent was really dumb on God's part, as events proved.

But God was not good enough to accept blame for his failings, his lack of responsibility. He blamed A&E. Actually he blamed Eve and placed the burden of punishment on her.

God was very unfair and unjust in this situation. He was just plain mean.

What God required of them was obedience.

God said don't.

They did.

How complicated is that?

God was not requiring them to know something they didn't know.

They knew they were told not to.

When you instruct your kids "Don't" , you are not asking them to understand everything you understand.

Obedience, for their own benefit, is what you are requiring.

The issue is obedience, not understanding.

And how is that just, from any god or anyone?

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Jason Proudmoore wrote:

real life wrote:
xingu wrote:
Quote:
When God clearly told Adam that they shouldn't, how can you possibly say 'they didn't know they shouldn't' ?

God said they shouldn't because if they did they would die. The serpent said they would gain knowledge and they would not die. Why should they not believe the serpent? They had no idea what right/wrong and good/evil was.

Now God knew of the serpent and knew of the nieve, unknowing ways of A&E. They were as unknowing and innocent as a small child. So for God to leave them alone and assume they could not be enticed by the serpent was really dumb on God's part, as events proved.

But God was not good enough to accept blame for his failings, his lack of responsibility. He blamed A&E. Actually he blamed Eve and placed the burden of punishment on her.

God was very unfair and unjust in this situation. He was just plain mean.

What God required of them was obedience.

God said don't.

They did.

How complicated is that?

God was not requiring them to know something they didn't know.

They knew they were told not to.

When you instruct your kids "Don't" , you are not asking them to understand everything you understand.

Obedience, for their own benefit, is what you are requiring.

The issue is obedience, not understanding.

And how is that just, from any god or anyone?

Since God made you, He has a right to require anything He should choose, including obedience. Just as you have the right to do with what you possess whatever you wish.

The fact that your obedience results in a benefit for you is due to grace; not because He owes you anything, even if you do comply.

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neologist, don't you think that God is quite naive (or stupid) by demanding something that He should've known was impossible? If you squeezed an orange, would you expect orange juice to come out or apple juice? Even the simplest of humans would know this, let alone a god.

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Why we are not perfect

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