The problem with liberal outrage; angry women scream at Orin Hatch.

@hightor,

Actually that isn't true. I have said this before.

On one side are screaming White men in red hats. On the other side are screaming White women in pink hats. That is where we are right now, White people in colored hats screaming at each other.

By the way Hightor, I am pretty sure "shrieking" is your word (I didn't use it). Maybe you are the sexist.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

By the way Hightor, I am pretty sure "shrieking" is your word (I didn't use it). Maybe you are the sexist.

I made it perfectly clear that I was referring to reports on the news, usually in interviews with conservatives and Trump supporters. Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with you. But it would have been refreshing if the neo-Nazis in Charlottesville had been reported as screaming "Jews will not replace us" and shrieking insults and profanity at the antifa counter-demonstrators.

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@hightor,

Shrill is another favourite term misogynistic arseholes use to describe women.

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@maxdancona,

I don't claim knowledge of the entirety of your posts, but I don't recall seeing a post from you denouncing conservative outrage and violent men in red hats. Nor do I recall one castigating Black Lives Matters protesters jumping up on stage and yelling at politicians. Likewise, I haven't seen anything about abortion protesters yelling at women outside of clinics. Perhaps I missed them or perhaps you aren't as evenhanded as you imply. I certainly do not see you directing the same vitriol at conservative posters that you do at liberal ones.

Just out of curiosity, why are the "angry women", victims of sexual assault who confronted Hatch, liberals? Do you know this or just assume that any conservative woman would have no problem with this particular conservative judge regardless of his background? Certainly conservative women had problems with Roy Moore.

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@engineer,

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, why are the "angry women", victims of sexual assault who confronted Hatch, liberals? Do you know this or just assume that any conservative woman would have no problem with this particular conservative judge regardless of his background? Certainly conservative women had problems with Roy Moore

They are using sexual assault as a political tool. This video was recorded and published by a group called "Vote Pro Choice". It was a cynical political set up.

There are sexual assault survivors who are conservatives. They aren't included. Whether or not you believe Dr. Ford has everything to do with your political affiliation. What do you tell sexual assault survivors who believe Kavanaugh?

This is about politics, not about sexual assault.

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@maxdancona,

It's about politics and sexual assault. You could say the same about Black Lives Matter or Abortion Clinic protests (but you don't as far as I can tell). I guess I would ask (not tell) Kavanuagh believers why they believe him. It would likely be an interesting conversation.

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@engineer,

Does Trump really believe the things he says?

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@engineer,

It is not fair to compare the Woman's March (those angry women in pink hats) with Black Lives Matter. There are big ways that the "Woman's March" is political in a way that Black Lives Matter isn't.

1) The Woman's March cuts very closely along party lines. There are a significant number of women (~40%) who consider themselves conservative. There are a significant number of women (~37%) who supported Kavanaugh. There are a large number of women (~38%) who believe that abortion should be illegal in all or most cases. Likewise there are very few men who identify as liberal who do not support this "movement". There are very few African Americans who do not support Black Lives Matter.

To say that this is about women is misleading. It is about political ideology.

2) The Black Lives Matter movement has specific positive goals with practical means to meet them. They want accountability for police, training, changes in policy and cameras. These are all things that can be done to make things better.

The Black Lives Matter movement (unlike the Woman's march) isn't about "smashing" anyone. It isn't about public shaming or taking away due process. It doesn't exclude African Americans who don't agree on unrelated issues.

3) There is a history of White Female Rage being used as a political force... and not always for good. White women were at the forefront of the Temperance movement (leading to prohibition) and the Segregationist movement.

The idea that an angry White woman has a power that can not be questioned goes back for centuries.

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@coluber2001,

For the record I am not defending Trump. The angry men in red hats are just as irrational.

The support for Trump was largely a backlash to the excesses of the Left. In a sense, the people who are protesting now are in large part responsible for Trump being in the White House.

If you angrily tell voters that if they disagree with you they are "deplorable" idiots, it makes it difficult to win elections.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

It is not fair to compare the Woman's March (those angry women in pink hats) with Black Lives Matter.

And yet "angry women" BLM activists have jumped up on stages and confronted politicians numerous times. They set the model for the the behavior that you complain about, except you didn't complain about it then. Conservative activists have done the same - no thread that I see. Abortion protesters have stood outside of clinics for years yelling at patients. Where's the concern about conservative outrage? Your claim of being a fair handed critic doesn't seem to hold water unless there are threads out there which I am unaware of.

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@engineer,

I think you have seen enough of me to know that I am perfectly willing push back on any ideological narrative (political or not). This is a predominantly liberal community; there are enough people here picking on the irrational statements from the right. I push back on the left because not many people are doing it (and the conservatives here seem to unwilling to leave the standard lines rather than really questioning the issues).

Jumping on the bandwagon doesn't interest me.

I think the liberal obsession with the wrath of White women is bad for liberalism. There is a reason that other issues such economics, racial justice and even the environment are getting short service.

And liberal politics is meaningless if the Democrats keep losing elections. Trump won because liberal excesses were seen by many voters as the greater of two evils.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I think you have seen enough of me to know that I am perfectly willing push back on any ideological narrative (political or not).

I know you believe that, but it is not my observation.

maxdancona wrote:

This is a predominantly liberal community; there are enough people here picking on the irrational statements from the right.

I disagree on both counts. There are plenty of conservatives here and they post aggressively on all of the liberal threads. Many of their statements go unchallenged. There is plenty of room for you to be even handed if you are so inclined.

maxdancona wrote:

I push back on the left because not many people are doing it (and the conservatives here seem to unwilling to leave the standard lines rather than really questioning the issues).

That is what you say about liberals, that they are unwilling to leave the standard lines. If that is what stops you from commenting on conservatives, I don't see where you would comment at all.

If you want to focus on liberals, go for it. That's a completely valid thing to do on the Internet. Just don't pretend that you are just an umpire neutrally calling balls and strikes. When Hightor wrote "I understand trying to remain critical of both sides ... but you are going far beyond even-handed disinterest in your continued attempts to distinguish yourself from the liberal Trump critics on this board," that is an opinion you might want to consider.

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@engineer,

I don't really care how I am seen. I express my opinions and defend them. I call myself a liberal because of my support for traditionally liberal values; free speech, due process, racial justice as I judge them. It doesn't really matter, I respect people who have opinions that cross traditional ideological lines.

Do you really need me to repeat that I think that Trump is an idiot, that his comments on women and minorities are wrong, deeply troubling and damaging, and that the rational of Trump supporters on many issues is absurd? I could do that... on this forum that would be boring.

Saying that the current liberal politics is angry, too reliant on identity politics and out-of touch with middle America doesn't mean that Trumpism isn't hateful, extreme and anti-American. They can both be true.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't really care how I am seen.

That must be why you keep whining about how unfair everyone is, even going as far as starting countless poor Max threads, because you really just don't care.

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@maxdancona,

The question is more how you see yourself. If you think you are an honest broker seeking truth and understanding, at least understand that others don't see that. Your worry around angry (liberal white) women screaming at Hatch about sexual harassment falls flat when you weren't worried (and apparently still aren't) about angry (liberal black) women screaming at government officials. It doesn't appear to be the liberal outrage you aren't happy with, just liberal outrage you don't agree with. Honestly, that's fine. You can argue any point you like, just don't sell the holier than thou stuff. You have biases that shape your arguments just like everyone else. You don't argue with people on the Internet to change their minds, you argue to persuade the lurker reading along.

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@engineer,

Quote:

You aren't worried .... about angry (liberal black) women screaming at government officials

You are putting words in my mouth. I am pretty sure I would be equally skeptical of a similar scene from a cause I agreed with. I have been critical of people blocking roads for Black Lives Matters. The message matters, but so does the medium.

I want the people I agree with to realize the goal is to win people to our side. If the actions my side takes has the effect of losing elections, I am against them even if the message is right (unless there is a measurable gain in some other arena).

When are Democrats going to get tired of losing elections enough to realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

When liberals can be painted as "unhinged" compared to Trump supporters... it is not a good thing for their side. This is handing ammunition to the other side.
Liberals need to cut their losses regroup and start figuring out how to reach out to voters. These temper tantrums don't help.

The thing is, we're at the start of a 20 year period of Republican control over the White House.

When a party goes through an extended period out of power, they always embrace extremism and nuttiness.

Give them another 17 years. I expect that the Democrats will start purging all the nutcases from their ranks sometime about then.

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@coluber2001,

coluber2001 wrote:

Does anybody think all the Republican Senators disbelieved Dr. Ford's story?

Well there certainly isn't any proof that Kavanaugh was involved.

And the fact that this was sprung at the last second is evidence that these charges were just a political attack.

coluber2001 wrote:

Some of them probably did disbelieve, but I suspect some of them believed Kavanaugh tried to rape her, and they just don't care. Their own careers are more important to them, and they're afraid to go against the party.

Even if there was incontrovertible proof of these allegations, youthful indiscretions are no reason to keep someone off the Supreme Court.

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@coluber2001,

coluber2001 wrote:

A number of Republican Senators said Dr. Ford's story was compelling, but they voted against her anyway. In other words her story was compelling, but it was a lie.

Not necessarily. She could have been mistaken about who attacked her.

coluber2001 wrote:

What it amounted to was that they just didn't give a **** that Kavanaugh attempted to rape Ford

Youthful indiscretions are hardly a reason to keep someone off the Supreme Court.

The way this was kept hidden and than sprung at the last second is another reason to not pay any attention to these accusations.

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@hightor,

hightor wrote:

I shouldn't have to point out that he did this in the face of relentless Republican obstruction of Obama's lower court appointments — a good example of the "politicization" I was talking about.

The Democrats are responsible for this polarization. The Republicans were blocking Obama's appointees (and not just the judicial appointees) as revenge for the Democrats doing the very same thing to Bush in 2007 and 2008.

hightor wrote:

And the fact is that it was McConnell who triggered the "nuclear option" for confirming Supreme Court justices in April of '17.

The Democrats were blocking Gorsuch without justification.

Wiser heads advised that the Democrats confirm Gorsuch and thereby preserve the filibuster so that they would have leverage for a more moderate candidate this time around. Luckily for America, the Democrats forced the Republicans' hand and now we can fill the Supreme Court with justices who believe in enforcing the Constitution.

We now have four conservatives on the court (Roberts is a closet liberal). One more and the Constitution will be back in force.

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The problem with liberal outrage; angry women scream at Orin Hatch.

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