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"The value of nihilistic thinking."

 
 
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2020 08:16 am
@livinglava,
The more I’m looking into this I’m realising that if one is to recognise Christian rules (the Law) as the yard stick for sin (assuming one recognises sin) and these rules have got to be kept perfectly as in one either keeps them perfectly (1) or one doesn’t keep them perfectly (0) nobody has any chance of meeting these standards perfectly ....they’re just too high a standard .Once again referring to my 0;1 formula....it works because it recognises this as in a 0 needs to become 1 and a 1 needs to become 0.Interesting, in my view it’s basically saying that God himself will sort the sin problem out ? Somehow?
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2020 08:43 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

The more I’m looking into this I’m realising that if one is to recognise Christian rules (the Law) as the yard stick for sin (assuming one recognises sin) and these rules have got to be kept perfectly as in one either keeps them perfectly (1) or one doesn’t keep them perfectly (0) nobody has any chance of meeting these standards perfectly ....they’re just too high a standard .Once again referring to my 0;1 formula....it works because it recognises this as in a 0 needs to become 1 and a 1 needs to become 0.Interesting, in my view it’s basically saying that God himself will sort the sin problem out ? Somehow?

I've explain this several times, but you're not getting it. There is no expectation that anyone will be able to achieve perfection.

The point is that you don't set a standard of what is achievable; you simply acknowledge everything that is less than perfect as sin.

So we are all sinners and we are all forgiven for sin, but then the question is what sins are we aware of and which are beyond our conscious awareness of them.

God sorts it out by giving us forgiveness and salvation from sin in Christ. Because we have that forgiveness/salvation, we are free to see as much sin as we can become aware of. As we see it, we confess and repent it, which helps deliver us from it. We pray, "allow us not to fall to temptation but deliver us from evil," and God does.

In this way, we are gradually becoming ever more aware of how much sin there is in this world and of what we have to look forward to in the hereafter.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2020 10:03 am
@livinglava,
But my understanding is that God will not let anything other than perfection into his presence ...but if I’m not perfect and the bible says that God cannot look on sin....any sin....and all sin needs to be dealt with.......how does that work? I’ve had it surely.Brilliant..that’s all I wanted to know.That’s cheered me up.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2020 11:08 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

But my understanding is that God will not let anything other than perfection into his presence ...but if I’m not perfect and the bible says that God cannot look on sin....any sin....and all sin needs to be dealt with.......how does that work? I’ve had it surely.Brilliant..that’s all I wanted to know.That’s cheered me up.

The logic is that once you accept forgiveness/salvation through Christ, you ask God to show you your sin and its consequences so you can confess and repent it to Him in prayer. That way, you enter into a lifelong process of redemption/sanctification, where you are being gradually cleansed of sin.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2020 11:49 am
@livinglava,
I do get that logic,thanks.I need to think more about it in relation to what I have discovered as well.Times are interesting.
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2020 09:17 am
@livinglava,
I’m trying to summarise things in my head.So Nihilism cancels everything out.So I need rules.So I have been given rules (the LAW) the bible says, (whether I want to believe it or not is another debate).I know I can’t keep these rules (FACT) but even so I still need to keep them perfectly.Therefore Christ needed to be punished for the sins (0) I couldn’t keep even though he was sinless (1) because Gods Law states that ALL my sins need to be dealt with and the bible says that God doesn’t lie.In my formula the 1 can then swap with the 0 and in fact needs to or I’ve had it.Is that correct?
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2020 10:34 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I’m trying to summarise things in my head.So Nihilism cancels everything out.So I need rules.So I have been given rules (the LAW) the bible says, (whether I want to believe it or not is another debate).I know I can’t keep these rules (FACT) but even so I still need to keep them perfectly.Therefore Christ needed to be punished for the sins (0) I couldn’t keep even though he was sinless (1) because Gods Law states that ALL my sins need to be dealt with and the bible says that God doesn’t lie.In my formula the 1 can then swap with the 0 and in fact needs to or I’ve had it.Is that correct?

You're thinking of it in terms of abstract logic, but it's actually more concrete than that.

Sin causes harm. Take a simple example like a farm worker who doesn't sew any seeds and then when harvest time comes around there is not enough food to harvest. If that farm worker wants to eat, he needs someone else to shoulder the burden of his sin, i.e. someone else to go hungry in his place, so he can eat the food that someone else sewed seeds to grow.

So what Christianity is saying is that in general, nature/God requires sacrifices as payment for sin. In the above example, the sin is laziness and the payment is not having enough to eat. People don't want to shoulder the burden of sacrifice for their own sins, so they displace them onto others by denying them. E.g. the lazy farm worker would deny that he was lazy and point to someone else as being more deserving of going hungry than him.

So what Christianity is saying is that everyone is a sinner and so everyone deserves to bear the sacrifices of sin, which ultimately amount to death. However, because Christ died and forgave sin, we no longer have to try to shift the burden away from ourselves. All we have to do is accept Christ's sacrifice and begin confessing and repenting our sins to God in prayer.

So it used to be you were supposed to earn your own salvation by atoning and making sacrifices, but in Christianity, we say that your sins are too great for you to overcome on your own and you need Christ to buy your salvation from God, which allows you to begin overcoming sin instead of denying it and scapegoating others to shift the burden to them.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2020 04:54 am
@livinglava,
I only think in black and white when it gets to this level.There absolutely is no grey in my view.I thought it just applied to the 2 off biological computers in my head playing devils advocate with each other (as you call it).These computers definitely cancel themselves out when it comes to reasonings, any reasoning, whether we like it or not, is my view.I’ve moved on from that debate because for me anyway it’s so boring.You get into the, provide proof/no you provide proof debates...boring agin.The view ( whether we agree with it or not) that Christ needs to swap places with sin,he being without sin is interesting as it still fits in with robotic thinking.Its as though robotic thinking is cancelled out as a result of Christ swapping places with sin,maybe.A balance is then still maintained.It appears that another ingredient is at play here.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2020 01:17 am
@Jasper10,
My view is that one needs to focus more on the “hardware” of who one is rather than the “software“ all the time.i.e.step outside our minds for a bit to see if there is anything there.Notice how the “hardware” works/functions.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2020 11:00 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I only think in black and white when it gets to this level.There absolutely is no grey in my view.I thought it just applied to the 2 off biological computers in my head playing devils advocate with each other (as you call it).These computers definitely cancel themselves out when it comes to reasonings, any reasoning, whether we like it or not, is my view.I’ve moved on from that debate because for me anyway it’s so boring.You get into the, provide proof/no you provide proof debates...boring agin.The view ( whether we agree with it or not) that Christ needs to swap places with sin,he being without sin is interesting as it still fits in with robotic thinking.Its as though robotic thinking is cancelled out as a result of Christ swapping places with sin,maybe.A balance is then still maintained.It appears that another ingredient is at play here.

Scapegoating is based on the idea that we can individually sow seeds and then deflect the consequences of what grows from our seeds to another person or class of people. It is a sin to scapegoat, but what Christianity is teaching is that if you were not a sinner, you would suffer and die for your own sins; but you don't and shouldn't do this because God doesn't want everyone to die; so just accept Jesus as your scapegoat and then allow God to make you into a better person. You could choose a different scapegoat besides Jesus, but what would be the purpose of that? Whomever you choose to die for your sins, it would be a sin for you to shift the burden to them.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 10:42 am
@livinglava,
I see things slightly differently.If robotic logic is applied, everyone is imperfect if the THE LAW is strictly adhered too and therefore our imperfection needs to be dealt with.Imperfection can only be dealt with by perfection it would appear.As the bible states no one is perfect this process is completely out of our hands.One either accepts the formula/solution or one doesn’t.It’s black and white.That is what the formula states whether one wants to agree with it or not.Simple maths.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2020 03:09 pm
@Jasper10,
Everything about physical creation including our physical bodies is totally balanced and “machine like” in my opinion.We can deny this if we wish but it changes absolutely nothing.There is hot there is cold...there is good there is bad ...there is perfection there is imperfection ...there are those who believe there is a God there are those who believe there isn’t ....who is going prove me right or wrong ...No one... ..,the perfect formula.We get absolutely no say whatsoever in any of it.This is my view and I recognise the machine like nature/balance including the need for the bible’s Christ needing to die for sin even though he was without sin to keep the balance.If one disagrees then who really cares when is comes down to it.No one.You are on your own potentially with or without God for an eternity.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2020 10:44 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I see things slightly differently.If robotic logic is applied, everyone is imperfect if the THE LAW is strictly adhered too and therefore our imperfection needs to be dealt with.Imperfection can only be dealt with by perfection it would appear.As the bible states no one is perfect this process is completely out of our hands.One either accepts the formula/solution or one doesn’t.It’s black and white.That is what the formula states whether one wants to agree with it or not.Simple maths.

Noting that everyone is imperfect doesn't mean that everyone is devoid of good and/or the potential for good. It just means that we're not all-good, nor can we ever be. We will always have the potential for evil, even when we are being good and resisting the temptation to act on it.

The issue is how do deal with our inherent potential for evil/sin. Should we atone in the way the old testament of the Bible describes? The new testament says that we don't need to atone because Jesus has already done that for us. So that leaves us the question of how to approach the potential for sin/evil in ourselves and in the larger world.

There is a lot written about this issue in the new testament, but to summarize, once we accept that we are saved from sin without atoning for it with sacrifices, we have to accept the duty of becoming more aware of sin in order to confess it and repent it in prayer.

In other words, you could say we become loving police of sin in ourselves and in the world outside ourselves, because our duty is to help God reform us and others through enlightenment about what is wrong and how to change it. The question is how to police ourselves and others in a way that is loving and honors that we are all brothers and sisters under the same Heavenly Father?

This is not as easy as it sounds because everyone is dealing with his or her own inner struggle between good and evil, and we are also all participants in a world that is prone to evil, which we simultaneously don't want to add to, yet we have to figure out ways to interact with others and the economy in a way that honors God's will for us to become better and make things better for others and future generations.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2020 11:52 am
@livinglava,
My view is that I need to get my head around the fact that if there is a God then God cannot let any sin into his presence.Therefore my imperfection needs to become perfection in this life or I have had it when I die.How is this possible?My view is that I need to do something or I remain imperfect.I know I can’t keep the LAW so I need to knock that one on the head.Surely Jesus wasn’t God? How can this be? It’s as though only God himself can resolve my predicament.Is that why Jesus had to die even though the bible says he was without sin? I just have to accept that he took the punishment for my sin.Surely not...? That’s mind blowing stuff if true.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2020 01:12 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

My view is that I need to get my head around the fact that if there is a God then God cannot let any sin into his presence.

In a manner of speaking, this is true; but in another way it's not. It's true because, think about it, when you are mired in a particular sin, you aren't aware of it being a sin. Your mind rationalizes is it in various ways. You see sin in others that you don't rationalize, e.g. criminals who steal; but you yourself don't steal so it makes it easier to recognize in others. If you were a thief, however, you would rationalize it by saying you need to steal to survive, or that the businesses are rich and you are poor therefore it is fair for you to take what you need/want, etc. So in that sense, you have to give up sin in order to see it clearly for what it is, i.e. to keep company with the truth instead of living a lie.

But in another sense, God is already present in everyone's life in that He is helping us to realize our salvation and progress toward truth, so He is helping us to become cleansed of sin so that we can get ever closer to Him. It isn't a 1/0 thing because you can't say you're either with God or you're not, i.e. because God is present in so many different ways.

Quote:
Therefore my imperfection needs to become perfection in this life or I have had it when I die.

Many people believe in purgatory, an afterlife state where we continue to be purged/cleansed/redeemed from sin so that we can at some point be with God without any taint of sin.

Quote:
How is this possible?My view is that I need to do something or I remain imperfect.

You do what you can. What you can do is determined by His grace.

Quote:
I know I can’t keep the LAW so I need to knock that one on the head.Surely Jesus wasn’t God? How can this be?

They say that humans need a human form of God to experience a certain kind of relationship with Him, so there is not only God the Father and God's Holy Spirit, but also Jesus the Son, who taught rebirth of spirit and died so people can be forgiven/saved.

Quote:
It’s as though only God himself can resolve my predicament.Is that why Jesus had to die even though the bible says he was without sin? I just have to accept that he took the punishment for my sin.Surely not...? That’s mind blowing stuff if true.

God 'Himself' is omnipresent as Holy Spirit. If you are thinking of God as somehow superior to Holy Spirit and thus that Holy Spirit is inferior to God the Father, then you're failing to understand that Holy Spirit IS GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT. He shares it with all who seek it; and you can seek it by accepting salvation through Christ.

People wonder how a human that lived 2000 years ago, Jesus, could take the punishment for sins that happened after He died, resurrected, and ascended to heaven. I think the answer to that lies in the nature of how He died as a product of betrayal and the failure of the Roman authorities to release Him even though they deemed him without fault. The point is that if God can allow these sins to condemn and kill Jesus, that God forgives all sin. Plus, by resurrecting, Jesus demonstrates the reality of eternal life and the possibility of re-awakening after death to ascend to God.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2020 06:21 am
@livinglava,
As I have said many times before, my view is that it is black and white so I completely disagree with you.It can’t be half black or half white because then it would be grey.The formula is not grey.It is clear and is 0/1.Purgatory,well in my opinion, forget it.I don’t agree with it and I will use the bible to confirm this.Jesus said to the thief on the cross ...truly,I tell you,today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43)...not someday following a spell in purgatory you will be with me in paradise.You can’t half have something, you either have it or you don’t.If you want to use another biblical example,you can’t have half salvation you either have it or you don’t.The formula doesn’t lie.On a separate point,it interesting that nihilism is mentioned in the bible (I’ve been doin a bit of reading up).See Isaiah 5:20.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2020 06:40 am
@Jasper10,
When it comes to deep thinking/searchings ,in my experience, there is always a left and a right in addition to the mid point.You absolutely cannot see the right as white and the left as black or vice versa...well you can if you want...but what if both sides are white or what if both sides are black? hence the formula again...0,0...0,1...1,0...1,1. whereby 1 is white and 0 is black.These are all the possible outputs of the biological machine which is totally balanced.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2020 10:54 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:
Purgatory,well in my opinion, forget it.I don’t agree with it and I will use the bible to confirm this.Jesus said to the thief on the cross ...truly,I tell you,today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43)...not someday following a spell in purgatory you will be with me in paradise.You can’t half have something, you either have it or you don’t.If you want to use another biblical example,you can’t have half salvation you either have it or you don’t.The formula doesn’t lie.On a separate point,it interesting that nihilism is mentioned in the bible (I’ve been doin a bit of reading up).See Isaiah 5:20.

Well, the way it works is we exist simultaneously on different levels. On the level of materialities and emotions, we are suffering, 'bearing crosses' of various kinds. On another level, however, we have salvation and faith in deliverance and that God is helping us through our trials and suffering, and that makes them bearable, and we can even experience joy and happiness and bliss in the midst of suffering with the knowledge that it's temporary and that we are going to get through it.

Some people who deny/ignore salvation just curse God for suffering in the world, because they can't understand how there can still be suffering and death if there is salvation. Jesus had to be crucified and die on the cross to be resurrected and ascend to Heaven, so there is a process of purging sin at the material level to ascend beyond that level of materiality/sin/death.

That's why when I read the line, "for the wages of sin is death, but whosoever believeth in him shoul not perish, but have eternal life," I think about having to go through sin and death as a sinner, but also to simultaneously be delivered from that sin/suffering/death at the spiritual level. That is also how I understand the popular Christian epithet, to be 'in the world but not of the world,' which also means that we have to live in the world with all its sin, but we are supposed to resist its temptations and live in a way that is steered by our relationship with Holy Spirit, instead of by reacting to temptations and sin of various kinds that are always in play.

So your salvation is immediate, in that you are reborn of spirit and thus gain a higher perspective on life; but you are still witness to what your body/flesh has to go through in this purgatory state where it continues to struggle with temptation, sin, and suffering. Don't you see that both levels can occur simultaneously, i.e. higher consciousness at the spiritual level and lower passion at the level of sin, the flesh, etc.?
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2020 11:50 am
@livinglava,
Ok,so I agree with the principle of immediacy at the spiritual level. i.e.it has to be black/white or 0/1 and is definitely a mysterious transaction.I don’t agree however with purgatory following death because if perfection has been granted at the spiritual level during life then there is no need for purgatory following this. My view is that this is why the thief on the cross was able to go directly into paradise.Who cares about the physical body.Surely God can provide a new pair of overalls.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2020 12:29 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Ok,so I agree with the principle of immediacy at the spiritual level. i.e.it has to be black/white or 0/1 and is definitely a mysterious transaction.I don’t agree however with purgatory following death because if perfection has been granted at the spiritual level during life then there is no need for purgatory following this. My view is that this is why the thief on the cross was able to go directly into paradise.Who cares about the physical body.Surely God can provide a new pair of overalls.

I think that because we can't see what happens with consciousness beyond the threshold of death, there is a tendency to imagine it as some radical threshold into a 'beyond' that is a radical change from life prior to death. That is what allows people to imagine they can escape the consequences of sin if they die before their karma comes back around to bite them, so to speak.

But, in my view, what changes when we are born again is that we gain a spiritual awareness of what's going on in the world and with our flesh-and-blood bodies with regard to sin, and we see how we keep getting pulled and captured in various ways despite the fact that we want and pray for deliverance. So it makes sense that the suffering we continue to experience as saved people is a product of sin in this world and in our pasts, but we are confessing and repenting and getting delivered from it in various ways, just not all at once.

So this gradual process of having sin purged from us is called 'sanctification,' 'redemption,' or 'cleansing,' and because it is a gradual process, you have to wonder what happens if we die before it is complete, or if some only gets reborn of spirit shortly before dying, etc.

For this reason, I don't believe that we escape this gradual process of sanctification by dying physically. Jesus went down into hell for a couple days before resurrecting and then ascending to heaven. I think there can be life after death that continues the sanctification process, and I don't even think we necessarily are aware after we die that anything is going on besides rebirth into the same world. This is why I think religions that explicitly talk in terms of reincarnation instead of "eternal life of the soul" are actually saying the same thing, which is that we are souls going through trials and tribulations of sin and being gradually purged of it so we can ascend to heaven.

When it says, "the wages of sin is death," I don't think that necessarily means just one physical death, but it refers to a whole series of spiritual and/or physical deaths that we go through in the long spiritual process of purging our sins, bringing us to the point where we can accept awareness of our salvation, and then continuing to purge our sins and sanctify us.

When you say you can't believe in purgatory after death, I think we may already be in purgatory and we may die and be reborn in it over and over as we purge various sins in various ways. I think becoming aware of salvation/redemption in Christ is a momentous turning point in the sin-purging process, but it doesn't end there, and it may well also not end when we experience physical/body death in a few decades time.

Still the good news is that we're saved and in the process of being redeemed/sanctified, so regardless of whatever else we may or may not think is going on, God is shepherding us in the direction we need to go in to reach our ultimate destination.
 

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