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"The value of nihilistic thinking."

 
 
livinglava
 
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Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 09:43 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I’ve looked into sin in the bible and and I came across 2 Corinthians 5.21.This is interesting if applied to 0 and 1 whereby 1 is no sin and 0 sin.Can you sin if there are no rules? What would be the measure? There therefore needs to be rules in my opinion following neutralisation....but did those rules apply prior to neutralisation? One can’t say no because the computers will remind you that one could also say yes.The ten commandment rules in the bible are fair enough but are more than a bit challenging I have to say.The problem is if there are rules one would have to keep them and keep them perfectly.If I sin just once then there is no way of undoing this.Sin once, and then I can’t then call myself not sin, if you know what I mean.How can you keep these rules perfectly? You can’t in my opinion.

That's exactly the point of Christianity. We all sin therefore we are in need of salvation from sin.

Sin is not so much rule-breaking as it is doing things that cause harm or lead to harm. Harm is happening and being caused in various ways all the time in this world, and so we are born into those networks of harm.

The harm was going on before we were born, so it originated from people who lived before us; and we experience it and re-produce it in various ways, so it will continue after we die.

In the meantime, we have to find a way to live that transcends and reforms it as best we can, even though we will not be able to eliminate all sin, either within ourselves or in the larger world.

Nevertheless, we can put effort into making things better for ourselves and others and God helps us overcome sin when we confess and repent in prayer. We can't expect to become perfect, because that is not possible in this world, but we can continue to put in our best effort to allowing God to improve us as much as is possible.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 10:44 am
@livinglava,
But it is absolutely and only about rule breaking in my opinion.If the Christian rules are correct and I need to keep these rules and I don’t then according to these rules I’m sin and NOT without sin.So in this respect I sit on one side of the fence and not the other.If one side of the fence is 1 ( without sin) and the other side is 0 (with sin) then the only person that sits on the other side is this Jesus man who the bible states is without sin.As I know that these 1 and 0 swap as balance is always maintained hence NIHILISM, it does make sense that he swaps with us.He makes his 1 our 1 and our 0 his 0.He effectively takes our place I.e, takes on our sin.Why would he want to do that? This can only be the interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5.21 surely.The formula is then complete.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 12:08 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

But it is absolutely and only about rule breaking in my opinion.

Rules are just an attempt to regulate behavior. If a rule says, "don't kill," the purpose is to regulate behavior to prevent killing. The real issue is killing and being killed. If you want to prevent people from killing and being killed, you can make a rule, but what if people don't follow the rule? Then you have to punish them and then you have some people trying to use the rule to justify punishing people without getting in trouble for harming the person they want to harm. So now if they can tempt someone into breaking the rule, they have achieved killing AND hurting of the killer, all without doing the killing themselves OR exerting the punishment unjusttly.

So rules are rules, but the fundamental issue is harm, how it's caused, and how people who do harm ultimately come to experience harm themselves.

Quote:
If the Christian rules are correct and I need to keep these rules and I don’t then according to these rules I’m sin and NOT without sin.

The first book of the Bible, Genesis, tell the story of Adam and Eve living prior to sin, but then they end up sinning as a result of getting tricked, and as a result their children are born into sin and so forth through the generations, until Jesus comes along and dies so that humans can henceforth find a path out of sin.

Quote:
So in this respect I sit on one side of the fence and not the other.If one side of the fence is 1 ( without sin) and the other side is 0 (with sin) then the only person that sits on the other side is this Jesus man who the bible states is without sin.

People talk about Jesus being without sin because that prevents you from concluding that He died because He was a sinner. Lots of people died by crucifixion and we all die somehow or another in the physical plane. Jesus taught that we should die to the flesh (meaning that we should rise above temptations to sin) and that once we are 'reborn of spirit,' we can begin the long process of allowing God to cleanse us of sin and gradually transform us into something worthy of heaven.

So there is no 1/o sinner or not, because the real issue is whether we as sinners are willing to accept Jesus dying for our sins so that we can confess and repent to God without shame/fear, and thus God can forgive our sins and set us right a little at a time.

Quote:
As I know that these 1 and 0 swap as balance is always maintained hence NIHILISM, it does make sense that he swaps with us.He makes his 1 our 1 and our 0 his 0.He effectively takes our place I.e, takes on our sin.Why would he want to do that? This can only be the interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5.21 surely.The formula is then complete.

Are you talking about balance between good and evil, as in yenyang? If so, I would say that does apply to sin, in that the more we confess and repent for sin, the more aware of it we become. It's like if you live in a very dirty home and you are also dirty, you don't notice it but once you take a shower, you notice the dirt around you more.

So there is a sort of balance, where if you are dirty, relative cleanness seems more clean than if you get clean and then the filth appears that much more filthy, while normal cleanness doesn't impress you as much because it has become your new standard.

That is why we can never expect to become perfect or to make this world perfect, i.e. because it is the nature of our perceptions that we will always discover new flaws no matter how perfect we become or how much we work to perfect other things.

If you try to arrange things in an organized way, for example, you can keep zooming in and finding smaller levels of disorder; but then when you get to the level of the molecules/atoms, they are in a state of quantum indeterminacy where they can't stay in one place no matter what you try to do to stabilize them.

So there is this capacity built into us to strive to become better and right wrongs, which is good; but we also have to accept that there is no finish line because of yenyang, i.e. because you can't achieve good in this world without it bringing more bad to light as well. It's not that you're causing bad by striving for good, but that you notice it more because your perception has sharpened in distinguishing good from bad.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 12:20 pm
@livinglava,
That’s a really interesting write up.Unfortunately I don’t agree with any of what you say because the sums don’t lie.Good luck with your searchings.Mine’s concluded.Signing off on on the overall formula.The rest is just detail.
livinglava
 
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Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 12:23 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

That’s a really interesting write up.Unfortunately I don’t agree with any of what you say because the sums don’t lie.Good luck with your searchings.Mine’s concluded.Signing off on on the overall formula.The rest is just detail.

I think I get it. You want things to work in a reductivistic way and if you can't reduce it to 1/0 dichotomies, you'll just ignore it.

That strategy is not going to get you anywhere near truth, but it might get you a little closer.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 12:39 pm
@livinglava,
You don’t know the behind the veil part though do you.The physical body consists of 3 parts not 2.Space is not what it appears.The sums don’t lie.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 01:43 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

You don’t know the behind the veil part though do you.The physical body consists of 3 parts not 2.Space is not what it appears.The sums don’t lie.

I'm trying to understand your POV but it's difficult because you don't explain.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 01:52 pm
@livinglava,
Read your bible ,Hebrews 6:19.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 02:08 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Read your bible ,Hebrews 6:19.

And what is 'behind the veil,' in your experience?
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 02:33 pm
@livinglava,
The temple in the bible is symbolic of something far greater/deeper and involves each individual personally and is related to their physical body.We can all come on these forums and pretend we have it all in hand but in the quietness of our own hearts is this really true or is it a lie? There is a peace behind the veil.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 02:42 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

The temple in the bible is symbolic of something far greater/deeper and involves each individual personally and is related to their physical body.We can all come on these forums and pretend we have it all in hand but in the quietness of our own hearts is this really true or is it a lie? There is a peace behind the veil.

Do you mean you have a retreat within where you are at peace with the fundamental experience of being one with the universe?

If so, that's a very valuable ability that will keep you strong throughout your journey, wherever it leads.

Are you familiar with the poem, Footprints?
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 27 May, 2020 02:53 pm
@livinglava,
Yes I am slowly coming into this experience more and more.I take no credit for this however.I believe in the formula because it does not lie.The poem footprints sums everything up.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2020 05:26 am
@Jasper10,
My meditations have taken me to the point whereby my view is that outer space is indeed not what it first appears.It would seem that it is made up of what can only be described as bubbles.You may say what is this guy on ? but before you do, just have a look at what the leading theoretical scientists are saying related to this and how this could explain a number of outstanding issues they have.Why do I mention this, well if correct then it should be possible to get between the bubbles shouldn’t it.,..hence behind the veil of space.If this is true of outer space then it must be true of what’s within us as well as we are made up of atoms and much smaller stuff clearly.This would confirm that there is indeed something in this 3 parts to the temple (our bodies) view point that the bible speaks of.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2020 05:52 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

My meditations have taken me to the point whereby my view is that outer space is indeed not what it first appears.It would seem that it is made up of what can only be described as bubbles.You may say what is this guy on ? but before you do, just have a look at what the leading theoretical scientists are saying related to this and how this could explain a number of outstanding issues they have.Why do I mention this, well if correct then it should be possible to get between the bubbles shouldn’t it.,..hence behind the veil of space.If this is true of outer space then it must be true of what’s within us as well as we are made up of atoms and much smaller stuff clearly.This would confirm that there is indeed something in this 3 parts to the temple (our bodies) view point that the bible speaks of.

You have to explain more clearly what you mean by 'bubbles,' etc.

Indeed, both outer space and inner space both correspond with interactions among the electromagnetic particles/waves that make up the 'space' in question, but anyone who has dreamed knows that we can experience what appears as vast spaces within the mind's eye. I don't know if the Bible verse you mention refers to that same 'mind's eye,' or whether it is just a reference to a certain peaceful state of mind, or maybe it's neither and you will enlighten us here when you figure out what exactly it is.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 May, 2020 05:57 am
@livinglava,
Hey,this is theoretical stuff at the moment.There is definitely something in it though in my opinion and the scientists are maybe starting to confirm it as well.
0 Replies
 
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 May, 2020 02:43 am
@livinglava,
If you are into the deep meditation stuff. My view is that when one looks inward there is always a right and a left scenario.Having gone within to think deeply one can’t be in two places at once hence why I believe our consciousness becomes split in some way as one goes within.Anyway, my view is one should always keep the balance between right and left.What one sees within is interesting but appears to be never ending.I’m more interested in how the above relates to the differing types of consciousness.The bubble relates to the black holes ( both sides of the fence).
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2020 05:25 am
@Jasper10,
Consciousness:My view is that when it comes to our minds we are clearly utilising them in some capacity all the time in relation to our conscious AWARENESS.In simple terms there appears to be 2/3 differing consciousness states that are there but one may not be aware of them.The reason for this is initially one is stuck in the weakest of the three most of the time i.e. autopilot and even if one goes into manual or neutral we are not AWARE of this.When we become AWARE of manual, one also, by implication becomes aware of autopilot for the very first time.One can train oneself to stay in the manual state just as much, if not more than, autopilot.If one goes within to think deeply, one does recognise a right and left scenario in my opinion but what one mustn’t forget as well is that there is a going within and coming out scenario as well which is directly related to the manual/autopilot consciousness states.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2020 08:14 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Consciousness:My view is that when it comes to our minds we are clearly utilising them in some capacity all the time in relation to our conscious AWARENESS.In simple terms there appears to be 2/3 differing consciousness states that are there but one may not be aware of them.The reason for this is initially one is stuck in the weakest of the three most of the time i.e. autopilot and even if one goes into manual or neutral we are not AWARE of this.When we become AWARE of manual, one also, by implication becomes aware of autopilot for the very first time.One can train oneself to stay in the manual state just as much, if not more than, autopilot.If one goes within to think deeply, one does recognise a right and left scenario in my opinion but what one mustn’t forget as well is that there is a going within and coming out scenario as well which is directly related to the manual/autopilot consciousness states.

Consciousness/awareness is not something that's discussed explicitly in Christian philosophy of confession and repentance, but it is implicit in that praying to acknowledge and express regret for sin required gaining awareness of it. So indeed as you become more secure in your forgiveness/salvation for these sins you are gaining awareness of, your consciousness will become ever more lucid. We block things out of our consciousness due to fear of condemnation, so as that fear subsides, we become more aware and peacefully so without shocks of fear. You mention 'autopilot' and that suggests to me that you're talking about going through life in a state of mind where you simply avoid the awareness that you can choose which actions to take and which to avoid. We often fear making choices because we expect to be held accountable for what we choose, so the conscious mind avoids being aware, hoping that ignorance will protect it from culpability for anything it might choose that puts it in conflict with some authority.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2020 11:20 am
@livinglava,
Firstly, if related, the bible does make reference to renewing the mind.Not sure what this means but it may be related to coming into a better understanding of consciousness states (among other things).Secondly,if one doesn’t recognise the word sin, in my view, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.It just means that one doesn’t recognise it.Its interesting that in the bigger picture one doesn’t want to recognise sin because that could make one accountable, but in the day to day one will go chasing after someone who has nicked the car keys believing that have sinned.Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the LAW (the Ten Commandments) it would appear.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2020 07:29 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Firstly, if related, the bible does make reference to renewing the mind.Not sure what this means but it may be related to coming into a better understanding of consciousness states (among other things).Secondly,if one doesn’t recognise the word sin, in my view, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.It just means that one doesn’t recognise it.Its interesting that in the bigger picture one doesn’t want to recognise sin because that could make one accountable, but in the day to day one will go chasing after someone who has nicked the car keys believing that have sinned.Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the LAW (the Ten Commandments) it would appear.

The word, 'sin,' is sometimes explained as meaning "to miss the mark," in terms of aiming for a target. You are striving for certain standards of behavior, and the universe could behave in an optimum way, but it doesn't; so all those things that are sub-optimum are 'sin.'
 

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