11
   

Was your vote in the 2016 elections meddled with?

 
 
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:04 pm
I'd do a poll, but not sure if we can here... So...
Survey Monkey is helping out.

Take the poll, one question, anonymous so might as well be honest.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 11 • Views: 2,255 • Replies: 83

 
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:06 pm
I'd like to see if anyone actually feels like their vote was meddled with by those pesky Russians.

Mine wasn't. There was zero chance that I'd have voted for H. Clinton. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

No one I know has said they felt their votes were meddled with either. Was yours?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:10 pm
@McGentrix,
I have no idea. I don't begin to think my one little vote tipped the election, so I remain clueless..
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:19 pm
@roger,
Every vote counts. Do you think your vote was influenced in such a way that you may have actually changed your vote because of a Facebook post or a piece of truth leaked by the DNC?
roger
 
  4  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:33 pm
@McGentrix,
I'll try to be clear. I voted for Clinton, and primarily because I was influenced by some apparently biased reports and videos indicating severe mental and physical problems. I was less against her running mate than any others on the ballot, and figured he would be next up when we sadly had to exercise the 25th amendment.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:34 pm
@McGentrix,
Why on earth would the DNC release any piece of truth?
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 10:56 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Why on earth would the DNC release any piece of truth?


Laughing
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2018 11:18 pm
On election day morning, I was torn over who to vote for. I liked the idea of Hillary's more militant foreign policy and support for Obamacare. But her gun bans would have been a disaster.

When I expressed my dilemma, a liberal friend sneered and said I didn't need to worry about guns because they were only going to ban assault weapons.

I think that this was somehow an attempt to convince me to vote for Hillary.

But it clarified the issue for me and left me no doubt that I must vote for Trump for the sake of America's freedom.

It was the right choice.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  4  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 05:04 am
@McGentrix,
No votes were meddled with (at least not directly). You don’t need to meddle with votes if you can color the information stream which people use to pick their votes. That’s the value of propaganda.
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 05:23 am
@roger,
Thank god you’re not Susan Sarandon. I hear tell from the psychotic donut crowd on Twitter that Susan is personally and completely responsible for Hillary’s untimely loss.

She’s some magical voting super woman!
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  4  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 06:18 am
Don't forget that in the USA's crap system voting is voluntary - so it's all about activating your base and discouraging the other side's. Not voting is essentially the same as voting for the other side.

oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 06:23 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:
No votes were meddled with (at least not directly). You don’t need to meddle with votes if you can color the information stream which people use to pick their votes. That’s the value of propaganda.
Freedom of Speech. If Russia wishes to pitch an argument to America's voters, they have just as much right to speak as anyone else.
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 06:39 am
This entire thread is based on a specious premise. Who has alleged that the Russians did anything to fraudulently alter the vote? In the specific case of the author, he may have voted for Plump, but his state went for Clinton. In New York, Clinton won slightly over 60% of the vote, and Plump won fractionally over 36%. I don't believe McG is fatuous, so I consider this thread to be, as Plump is so fond of saying, fake news--from start to finish.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 07:14 am
@Setanta,
I keep seeing that Russia meddled with the election. You've seen it, I am sure. In order to meddle with an election, you must meddle with the voting public.

Spreading truth's or lies about a political candidate is not meddling, that is campaigning and if it were the case, well let's just say that meddling has been occurring throughout time.

I am on a hunt to discover what it is exactly that Russia did to be considered "meddling" with the election.

I have seen that the DNC servers were hacked and that info was leaked to wikileaks. Is that meddling or disseminating the truth? I see that a Cohen-Trump tape was leaked recently. Is that meddling? If it happens that Russia was behind that (which I doubt, but let's pretend they were) does it change the way people react to it?

If Hillary had won the election, would Russia still be Baba Yaga?

Nothing specious here Set, just mere curiosity as this appears to be one of those events where "Well my vote wasn't effected, but America's vote was!" when in actuality, no one had theu actual vote meddled with.
Below viewing threshold (view)
engineer
 
  8  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 08:03 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

Spreading truth's or lies about a political candidate is not meddling, that is campaigning and if it were the case, well let's just say that meddling has been occurring throughout time.

Yes, that is propaganda.
McGentrix wrote:

I am on a hunt to discover what it is exactly that Russia did to be considered "meddling" with the election.

Breaking into servers of political parties is illegal. There is precedent here, a case called "Watergate". If the DNC conducted a cyber attack on the RNC and released internal RNC memos, I doubt anyone would have a problem considering that illegal. A conspiracy to attack US political parties by a foreign power is more than illegal, it is an attack on the US.
McGentrix wrote:

I have seen that the DNC servers were hacked and that info was leaked to wikileaks. Is that meddling or disseminating the truth?

That is illegal. The DNC, RNC, anyone else is allowed to formulate strategy in private. Anyone, domestic or foreign, who hacks into an opponent's email is breaking the law. IMO, if a foreign power does it, it is an attack on our country. If a DNC insider did it as an act of whistleblowing (to show illegal or dishonest activity) you could make a "disseminating the truth" argument.
McGentrix wrote:

I see that a Cohen-Trump tape was leaked recently. ...If it happens that Russia was behind that (which I doubt, but let's pretend they were) does it change the way people react to it?

That tape was officially released by Cohen's attorneys but let's run with it. If the tape was released by a US citizen as "whistleblowing" to show dishonest or illegal activities, then no, it is not unethical (and perhaps not even illegal). In this case, it clearly fits that category since the payments being discussed are potential violations of campaign contribution law. If Russia did it and they obtained the tape legally, I would consider that a propaganda attack although the person who gave it to them is guilty of conspiring with a foreign power. If Russia obtained the tape by illegal means, it would be much more serious and yes, it would change the way I viewed it. I would absolutely consider it an attack on our country.
McGentrix wrote:

If Hillary had won the election, would Russia still be Baba Yaga?

Yes, Russia is still conducting cyber crimes in the US focused on our state election systems and is attacking our political parties cyber infrastructure. I doubt Clinton would be ignoring that the way the current administration seems to be. (Actually, I think some parts of the current administration are actively trying to address this.)
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 08:16 am
@engineer,
Let's take another example that I think is a lot more nebulous - the leak of comments a staffer made about John McCain "he's dying anyway".

If Russia had hacked into that meeting and released that information, to me that would be a crime. Same if the DNC had done it. Whoever did release it (and I can't see it was anyone other than a fellow staffer), it was clearly focused on damaging the speaker. There was no benefit to the public in terms of exposing government dishonesty or criminality. The public might have found it juicy gossip, but otherwise it had no value.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 10:26 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Who has alleged that the Russians did anything to fraudulently alter the vote?


About 11,600,000 results (0.56 seconds)
Search Results
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What we know about the 21 states targeted by Russian hackers - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../what-we-know-about-the-21-states-targeted-by-russi...
Sep 23, 2017 - In most cases, voting systems were not breached. ... Friday that it had notified 21 states of Russian efforts to hack their election systems in 2016.
U.S. Tells 21 States That Hackers Targeted Their Voting Systems - The ...
https://www.nytimes.com/.../us-tells-21-states-that-hackers-targeted-their-voting-systems....
Sep 22, 2017 - About one year before, the Department of Homeland Security first said that states had been targeted by hacking efforts possibly connected to ...
Russians penetrated U.S. voter systems, top U.S. official says
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Feb 7, 2018 - The U.S. official in charge of protecting American elections from hacking says the Russians successfully ... Russia penetrated voter databases before 2016 election ... NBC News reached out to the 21 states that were targeted.
Russians compromised election systems in seven states: NBC News ...
https://www.reuters.com/...election/russians-compromised-election-systems-in-seven-st...
Feb 27, 2018 - Russians compromised election systems in seven states: NBC News ... Russia ran a program of hacking and disinformation to interfere in the elections ... It told them 21 states had been targeted and some had been breached, ...
Election Hacking: 21 States Were Targeted | Fortune
fortune.com › Tech › Hacking
Sep 22, 2017 - The federal government on Friday told election officials in 21 states that hackers targeted their systems last year, although in most cases the ...
Russia targeted election systems in 21 states, successfully hacking ...
https://techcrunch.com/.../electronic-voting-state-hacking-russian-government-cyber-a...
Sep 22, 2017 - On Friday, the Department of Homeland Security notified nearly half of the U.S. states that their election systems were targeted by ...
Russian hacking: 21 states' election system targeted, Wisconsin ...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...states...hacking-elections.../694719001/
Sep 22, 2017 - MADISON, Wis. — Russians attempted to hack elections systems in 21 states in the run-up to last year's presidential election, officials said ...
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Sep 23, 2017 - The federal government on Friday told election officials in 21 states that hackers targeted their systems before last year's presidential election.
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Feb 27, 2018 - The 2018 midterm elections are still months away, but the threat of Russian ... detailed Russians' gambit to hack a private vendor that supplied voter ... 2017 Senate intelligence hearing that at least 21 states were targeted and ...
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Sep 22, 2017 - The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) notified 21 states Friday that Russia attempted to hack their election systems before the 2016 ...

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Russians penetrated US voter systems: NBC, citing top US official
https://www.cnbc.com/.../russians-penetrated-us-voter-systems-nbc-citing-top-us-offici...
Feb 7, 2018 - U.S. officials have said there is no evidence that any states' voter registration rolls were tampered with. ... officials in the 21 targeted states that Russian government hackers had tried to penetrate their voting machines in 2016.
Pennsylvania race shows need for U.S. voting machine upgrades ...
https://www.reuters.com/.../us-usa-election...votingmachi/pennsylvania-race-shows-ne...
Mar 14, 2018 - Pennsylvania race shows need for U.S. voting machine upgrades: experts ... protecting voting machines from tampering, failure or human error.
Russian Election Hacking Efforts, Wider Than Previously Known, Draw ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/us/politics/russia-election-hacking.html
Sep 1, 2017 - After a presidential campaign scarred by Russian meddling, local, state and federal ... quiet election,” he said, playing down the notion of tampering. ... controlling hundreds or thousands of decentralized voting machines — is ...


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Jul 29, 2017 - It took DEF CON hackers minutes to pwn these US voting machines ... that could be used to install malicious software to tamper with votes.
Hackers breached defences of US voting machines in less than 90 ...
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Jul 31, 2017 - Hackers competed to take control of US voting machines and overcame ... be avoided by watching them to ensure no-one tampered with them.
Every Voting Machine at This Hacking Conference Got Totally Pwned
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Jul 31, 2017 - Two of the hackers working on the touchscreen voting machine, ... the security of various machines and networks used in US elections. ... vulnerabilities in voting machines that leave them open to tampering and manipulation.
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Jul 31, 2017 - Hackers have managed to break into US voting systems and take control of ... fears that cyber criminals could easily tamper with elections results.
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Aug 1, 2017 - The same machines used in US elections were easily hacked ... If the vote or the machine is tampered with then the receipt won't match the ...
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Oct 10, 2017 - Hacking and national security experts say that U.S. voting machines are vulnerable and ... internal parts that may be susceptible to tampering.

__


#3 from this article is the part I've been following on twitter for about 18 months (though #2 fascinates me as well)

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/18/russia-election-hacking-trump-putin-698087



___


https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/trump-election-hacking-and-the-georgia-governors-race

Quote:
“It seems like now it’s just the D.C. media and the bureaucrats, because of the D.N.C. getting hacked—they now think our whole system is on the verge of disaster because some Russian’s going to tap into the voting system,” Kemp said at the time. “And that’s just not—I mean, anything is possible, but it is not probable at all, the way our systems are set up.”

And yet, as it turned out, that was exactly the way the system in Georgia was set up. We know this because, a few days before Kemp blasted the D.H.S. and dismissed the D.N.C. hack, a young security researcher in Georgia named Logan Lamb began poking around the Web site of Kennesaw State University’s Center for Election Systems, looking for vulnerabilities. The Center was under contract with the Georgia secretary of state’s office—Kemp’s office—to program and test all the voting machines in the state, train state election workers, and distribute the state’s electronic voter-registration database to the counties. With the entire state election system housed in one place, the Center was a high-value, potentially vulnerable target. Lamb, who worked for an Internet-security company called Bastille, wanted to find out how vulnerable.

On the Center’s Web site, Lamb quickly discovered a trove of unsecured files—fifteen gigabytes’ worth. Among the files were lists of passwords that would allow election workers to sign into a central server on Election Day, and the systems that prepared ballots and tabulated votes. He also found software for the state’s “poll books,” electronic databases that are often used to verify people’s eligibility to vote, as well as a security hole through which he could download the entire database of the state’s 6.7 million registered voters. The files had been publicly exposed for so long that they were cached on Google. He also saw that the Center had failed to fix a well-known glitch in its content-management system through which hackers could take control of the site. A patch for this issue had been publicly available for two years.

Having discovered all of this, Lamb alerted the Center’s executive director, Merle King, first by e-mail, and then by phone. According to a subsequent legal filing, King warned Lamb to keep quiet about the compromised server or risk being “crushed” by the politicians “downtown.” King also told Lamb that “the issues would be remediated.” Satisfied that he had done due diligence, Lamb walked away—temporarily. In February, 2017, he and another researcher, Chris Grayson, reinvestigated the case, and found that all the files Lamb had stumbled upon six months earlier still hadn’t been secured. And this time they also found information from the 2016 election and a training video that showed election workers how to download files from the Election Center Web site, put them on a memory card, and insert that card into their local voting machines. This is the same series of steps that would enable a hacker to install malware on a voting machine that is not connected to the Internet.


Quote:
As the Coalition said in a brief, “The State of Georgia and its officials have the legal, moral, and ethical obligation to secure the State’s electoral system. Sadly—and inexplicably—they appear to lack the will to do so.” The Coalition is now looking ahead to the November midterms, and it is asking the court, yet again, to require Georgia to replace its aging, paperless, massively insecure voting machines before then. In one recent motion, the defendants asked the court to dismiss the case on the grounds that the alleged injury—the possibility that votes will be compromised—is speculative. But that gets to the heart of the matter: maybe they will be, and maybe they won’t be, and no one will know for sure. In a system with absolutely no accountability, claiming that votes were not changed and outcomes were not affected is just as credible as saying that they were.


Quote:
For almost two years now, the American public has been told that, despite the various incursions by Russian agents, our election system—because it is decentralized, because it is a patchwork of different kinds of makes and models of voting machines—is likely insulated from the kind of hacking that results in votes being manipulated. This has been Brian Kemp’s argument. But, as the experience of his own state demonstrates, it’s flat-out wrong.



much more at the link

__

did the russians alter the actual votes? I have no idea.
could they have? I'm coming around to that being a possibility

did they need to? my guess is no

__

I know I wouldn't be thrilled not to have hardcopy votes to check.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 11:14 am
The JagerPro hog trap. Again this is what the Russians were interested in:

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2018 01:28 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
I keep seeing that Russia meddled with the election. You've seen it, I am sure. In order to meddle with an election, you must meddle with the voting public.


Your premise is false, and I think you know it. We do not, of course, know specifically what Mueller's investigation is looking at. However, we do know that there have been allegations of improper payments, money laundering and illegal interference in the election process through financial transactions. While the federal election law is ambiguous, foreign agencies are prohibited from contributing to political campaigns, and foreeign NGOs can only contribute to political campaigns if more than 50% of their expenditures in the United States go to social welfar4e programs. I doubt that the Internet Research Center in St. Petersburg spends one red cent on social welfare programs in the United States.

You keep banging on about "meddling." That's a journalist's term. Look for the language that Mueller's team uses, not some clown at Fox or CNN. That's a load of old crap about people's votes. If people stayed home, if they voted in a "non-traditional" manner, and were motivated by Russian propaganda, then that's illegal. If members of Plump's campaign team colluded in that effort, that's illegal. You've just put this into simplistic terms so that you can erect a straw man.

This article at the University of Kentucky Election Law Society web site states that the law is unambiguous, but I don't know that I agree with that. It's not about somebody hacking your voting machine, it's about illegal interference in the campaign, and there are federal laws against that.

This entire thread is a straw man fallacy.
 

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