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Israel is officially an apartheid state

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 23 Jul, 2018 06:26 pm
The Jews were expelled from Palestine (Syria Palestina) by the Romans in the second century of the common era. The Muslims, Christians and Druze of Palestine are the indigenous people.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Mon 23 Jul, 2018 06:45 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
Israel is NOT a democracy
This is incorrect. Israel elects their leaders in standard democratic fashion.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Mon 23 Jul, 2018 06:46 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The Jews were expelled from Palestine (Syria Palestina) by the Romans in the second century of the common era. The Muslims, Christians and Druze of Palestine are the indigenous people.
That would mean Native Americans are no longer indigenous to North America (other than the reservations they currently possess), and white European settlers are now indigenous to most of North America.
livinglava
 
  -1  
Mon 23 Jul, 2018 07:20 pm
@InfraBlue,
What you are saying is basically the way I used to think about the whole world; i.e. why can't all national borders be dissolved and everyone's liberty to migrate anywhere respected and honored?

The problem with that is that people don't honor each other's liberty, rights, and otherwise avoid harming and exploiting each other. So it puts those of us who want a world of people to be able to behave themselves well enough to deserve liberty in a precarious position.

So when people are demonstrating their will to violence by sending fire bombs and other attacks, how could you possible trust that granting full citizenship rights won't just move the subversive movement closer to home and make it more difficult to police?

Think of it another way: if the US civil war had resulted in dividing the US into north and south, and people on the losing side were vehemently bitter at their former enemies and seeking to subvert them, would you as a person on the winning side want to extend citizenship to people who might use it to restart the war from within?

Really, I am all for democracy and freedom, but doesn't democracy have to precede freedom; i.e. don't people have to first prove that they can engage in good-faith non-violent civil discourse before you can fully trust and honor their liberty? It is of course something different when you actively deny people the chance to prove themselves because you ultimately want an excuse to discriminate against them and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about legitimately seeking to reach peaceful democratic relations so that you can indeed live in a free democratic society where rights and liberty, including that of migration and economic self-determination are universal. In fact, isn't that what zionism is ultimately all about?
livinglava
 
  -1  
Mon 23 Jul, 2018 07:26 pm
@Setanta,
No one is ultimately indigenous to anywhere but the African cradle of the human species. Everywhere else people migrated to. What's more, this is a racial way of looking at populations. E.g. do you want to do DNA analysis on all Europeans to see whether they are truly indigenous or the product of mixing between the indigenous populations and the Roman empire?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Mon 23 Jul, 2018 08:57 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The Jews were expelled from Palestine (Syria Palestina) by the Romans in the second century of the common era. The Muslims, Christians and Druze of Palestine are the indigenous people.
If forcing Jews to leave their homeland was enough to rob them of their indigenous status and bestow it on other people, then the creation of Israel in 1947 was enough to return that indigenous status back to them.

So Israeli Jews are indigenous to Israel even under this novel "invaders are indigenous" hypothesis.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 01:22 am
@oralloy,
Ignore the time scale if you wish; you're just peddling your typical bullshit. Yes, those descended from aboriginal Americans as well as those descended from Europeans are indigenous to North America.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 01:29 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
you're just peddling your typical bullshit.
As always, everything that I've said is completely correct.

Setanta wrote:
Ignore the time scale if you wish;
How long does an invader have to live on conquered land before they become indigenous in your view?

If the descendants of European settlers are already indigenous to North America, then Israeli Jews won't have too long to wait before they count as indigenous to Israel under this system.
Setanta
 
  2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 01:42 am
@oralloy,
No, it's not correct. As usual, you are offering your opinions, and calling them fact. Your opinions are informed by your political prejudices, and not at all informed by history. You are just peddling your typical ipse dixit fallacious bullshit.

You're also peddling a straw man fallacy. I didn't say the Jews are not indigenous. You said that only the Jews are indigenous, and that's bullshit. The ancestors of the Christians, Muslims and Druze who now inhabit Israel were there in Syria Palestina when the Romans expelled the Jews. They are also indigenous to Palestine.
Setanta
 
  2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 01:45 am
Oralloy, responding to another member wrote:
The Israelis are the indigenous people here.


Typical bullshit--the Christians, Muslims and Druze of Palestine are also indigenous.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 02:13 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
No, it's not correct. As usual, you are offering your opinions, and calling them fact. Your opinions are informed by your political prejudices, and not at all informed by history. You are just peddling your typical ipse dixit fallacious bullshit.
This is incorrect. Everything that I say is completely correct and is amply backed up by historians worldwide.

Setanta wrote:
You're also peddling a straw man fallacy. I didn't say the Jews are not indigenous. You said that only the Jews are indigenous, and that's bullshit. The ancestors of the Christians, Muslims and Druze who now inhabit Israel were there in Syria Palestina when the Romans expelled the Jews. They are also indigenous to Palestine.
I'm willing to consider Palestinians as indigenous alongside Israeli Jews.

But Israeli Jews are indigenous as well.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 02:14 am
@Setanta,
Oralloy, responding to another member wrote:
The Israelis are the indigenous people here.
I was responding to a post that incorrectly referred to Israeli Jews as if they were not indigenous to Israel.

Setanta wrote:
Typical bullshit--the Christians, Muslims and Druze of Palestine are also indigenous.
And so are Israeli Jews.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 06:48 am
Religion does not define place of origin. The Jews who originated Zionism were indigenous to Central and Eastern Europe. Genetically, they are mostly Southern European with relatively small percentages of haplogroups exhibited in Middle Eastern populations and heavy homogeneousness. By and large, Jews are descendants of proselytes outside of Palestine.
Setanta
 
  2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 07:10 am
@oralloy,
Once again, I did not say that Jews are not indigenous, so once again, you're peddling a straw man fallacy. Whom you are willing to include is hilariously irrelevant.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 08:38 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
What you are saying is basically the way I used to think about the whole world; i.e. why can't all national borders be dissolved and everyone's liberty to migrate anywhere respected and honored?

The problem with that is that people don't honor each other's liberty, rights, and otherwise avoid harming and exploiting each other. So it puts those of us who want a world of people to be able to behave themselves well enough to deserve liberty in a precarious position.


That's not what I'm saying at all.

livinglava wrote:
So when people are demonstrating their will to violence by sending fire bombs and other attacks, how could you possible trust that granting full citizenship rights won't just move the subversive movement closer to home and make it more difficult to police?

You start by owning your obligations in regard to thier rights and pursue the extremists all the while.

livinglava wrote:
Think of it another way: if the US civil war had resulted in dividing the US into north and south, and people on the losing side were vehemently bitter at their former enemies and seeking to subvert them, would you as a person on the winning side want to extend citizenship to people who might use it to restart the war from within?


The issues involved in the Israel-Palestine conflict are not comparable to the issues involved in the US civil war.

livinglava wrote:
Really, I am all for democracy and freedom, but doesn't democracy have to precede freedom; i.e. don't people have to first prove that they can engage in good-faith non-violent civil discourse before you can fully trust and honor their liberty?


One starts with one's obligations and continues from that.

livinglava wrote:
It is of course something different when you actively deny people the chance to prove themselves because you ultimately want an excuse to discriminate against them and that's not what I'm talking about.

That's precisely what is occurring, though.

livinglava wrote:
I'm talking about legitimately seeking to reach peaceful democratic relations so that you can indeed live in a free democratic society where rights and liberty, including that of migration and economic self-determination are universal. In fact, isn't that what zionism is ultimately all about?

That is not what Zionism is ultimately all about. Zionism is about maintaining a homeland for "the Jews." The way it's being carried out, it necessarily oppresses the peoples in Palestine that are not Jews.
livinglava
 
  0  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 09:26 am
@InfraBlue,
The politics of culture and collectivism are complex. Take a look at what happened in Europe before WWII with anti-Semitism, or what is happening with anti-Trumpism. These are cultural movements where individuals are not thinking independently. They are massive group-think phenomena where people are just going with the flow of popular ideas, opinions, and emotions. In such a climate, individual rights become a shield for collectivism to protect the larger social body from being undermined. I find it as hard to believe that Palestinians are all anti-Semitic as I do that all whites hate blacks, or that all democrats hate everything that Trump is doing - so that is what leads me to believe that there is something going on with cultural collectivism that is undermining the ability to think independence and resist hate at the individual level.

Part of what prompts people to sacrifice their individual independence in favor of collectivizing is that there are certain people coaching them to believe that collectivizing is the only way for them to achieve power against those they have defined themselves in opposition to. Democracy, contrary to socialist/collectivist definitions of it is not about garnering a collective majority and overthrowing resistance of those who resist joining the majority. That is majoritarian fascism. Yet socialists/collectivists from labor union leaders to protest organizers seduce people into such fascism by selling them on the belief that they are powerless as individuals, or at least that they can achieve more power by bonding together. Once people bond together and submit to centralized control, how can you reason with them independently? They reject such reasoning as a tool of the oppressors to decollectivize them and thus take away their power.

So although it would be great if you could treat people as individuals, they first have to give up clinging to collective power and opposition to whatever it is they perceive as obstructing their majoritarian will. Minorities, including Jewish people, have the right to protection from majoritarian power and that is what democracy is ultimately about. It is also about protecting the majority from the will of an exploitative elite, but when the majority is attempting to use the force of numbers and popularity to overpower the right of dissent, then minorities have to protect themselves against that force. Once majoritarians realize that their majoritarianism is also a form of fascism, then they will be able to engage in peaceful democratic discourse, but as long as they refuse, it's going to prompt dissidents to stand up to them and from their perspective that standing up is going to appear as oppression against them.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 09:55 am
http://www.maggiesnotebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/DryBones-Palestine-Quiz.gif
Infrablue can answer these questions.
livinglava
 
  0  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 01:36 pm
@coldjoint,
The POV expressed in the cartoon is racist and biased. People don't have to have centralized government, currency, etc. to be legitimate human beings. The mere fact that they survive without going extinct attests to cultural-economic ability to self-sustain throughout generations. I am not on either 'side' of the Israelis or the Palestinians, but I know, for example, that indigenous Americans, Africans, etc. have had their culture disrespected by measuring it according to such standards as the one depicted in the cartoon. If you can't understand humanity and culture in its broadest sense, you should do some research and reflection on how animals and humans live and the broad spectrum of practices that are possible to self-sustain, which humans have been maintaining and refining in various ways since the beginning of the species.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 02:14 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
The POV expressed in the cartoon is racist and biased.

So is the religion that inspires Palestinians to attack and kill Jews. As far as I know, that cartoon has launched 0 rockets and killed no one.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Tue 24 Jul, 2018 06:52 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Religion does not define place of origin. The Jews who originated Zionism were indigenous to Central and Eastern Europe. Genetically, they are mostly Southern European with relatively small percentages of haplogroups exhibited in Middle Eastern populations and heavy homogeneousness. By and large, Jews are descendants of proselytes outside of Palestine.
The fact that they were forcibly expelled from their homeland and subsequently interbred with others does not deprive them of their indigenous status in their ancient homeland.
0 Replies
 
 

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