9
   

Israel is officially an apartheid state

 
 
livinglava
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 01:54 pm
@InfraBlue,
What would you do if you lived in Israel and there were all these attacks being launched in so many ways at you? Would you just ignore them and hope they stop?
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 02:23 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
What would you do if you lived in Israel and there were all these attacks being launched in so many ways at you? Would you just ignore them and hope they stop?

Very legitimate question. Why someone would vote it down only shows they have no tolerance for facts or disagreement. It is not easy to talk to people like that, but keep trying, please.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 03:19 pm
@coldjoint,
Yes, it was a sincere question; not meant rhetorically to imply that violence is a given. I am very much in favor of people living together peacefully without territorial borders, etc. and I have seriously listened to people who have said that there was peace before the establishment of Israel as a state. But when I see all these violent attacks and no real discussion of how to solve the problems besides blaming Israel, I wonder what critics of Israel would do if they were in the same position. E.g. if a Palestinian state is established and Palestinians are under siege by others, how would they deal with the attacks? In general, what better method is there for dealing with such attacks? To give up and eliminate the borders?

If Israel just eliminated borders, wouldn't anti-Semitism just become more of a threat to Jewish people? Does anyone think that anti-Semitism would suddenly disappear if Jewish people had no permanent citizenship/state?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 05:19 pm
@coldjoint,
If there was a possibility for an intelligent discussion (which I would love to have)... I would point out that one wrong action doesn't justify another.

- Israel is acting badly in several ways (settlements, abuses in the occupied territories, and now anti-democratic legislation).

- Palestinian groups are acting badly (violent acts, rockets, etc.).

These two statements are independently true. If I were an Israeli, I would demand that my country live up to its democratic ideas regardless of the challenges. When the US was attacked, and later when my city (Boston) was attacked, I demanded the same.

If there is anyone who will discuss this rationally, I am in.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 05:48 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
- Israel is acting badly in several ways (settlements,
Settlements are not bad behavior. Since Israel will get to keep this land due to the Palestinians' refusal to make peace, is it perfectly reasonable for them to put the land to good use.

Should the Palestinians ever in the future decide to make peace, any land that is handed over to the Palestinians in exchange for that peace can have its settlements withdrawn at that time.

maxdancona wrote:
abuses in the occupied territories,
The only occupied territory is Area B. Israel is not carrying out any abuses in Area B or anywhere else.

Frankly, since the Palestinians are not interested in making peace, Palestinians who live in Area B should consider moving to Area A and just let Israel take Area B for themselves.

maxdancona wrote:
and now anti-democratic legislation).
Pro-Jewish legislation in a Jewish state is no abuse. If someone of a different religion wants the full rights of Israeli citizenship, let them convert to Judaism.

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/westbankabclarge.jpghttp://iris.org.il/images/oslo2000.gif
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 06:17 pm
@maxdancona,
When I read that people are tying fire bombs to balloons and kites and even living birds, and trees are getting set on fire, that led me to reflect on how you would handle that kind of crime if it was simply bad neighbors who share the same ethnicity as you. The answer is you would ask for it to stop and if people refused, you would increase the use of force, which is how policing crime works. You can say that people don't treat others with the same ethnicity that way, but they do. Civil wars happen and wars between allies. It is just a question of people either seeking to resolve differences peacefully or using violence instead. When you choose violence, what do you expect the result to be except more violence?
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 09:07 pm
@livinglava,
Yeah, no kiddin' . . . when IDF kills women and children, blasting rocket-propelled munitions into apartment buildings, I can see why Hamas shoots back, and remains popular among the Palestinians.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 09:24 pm
@Setanta,
Hamas is not shooting back. They are aggressors who are trying to murder innocent people.

They are popular with Palestinians because Palestinians enjoy murdering innocent people.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 09:34 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
blasting rocket-propelled munitions into apartment buildings,

They find where the rockets are coming from and destroy that capability. If they are in a building with women and children that is not Israels fault. And if you knew what you were dealing with, the dead children and women are martyrs for their faith.

Palestinians store ammo in schools and launch rockets right by civilian neighborhoods, on purpose, life means o to them, so they can call Israelis monsters.

Quote:
"Whenever a Jew is killed, it is for the benefit of Islam.” More Sirhindi

http://islamicsupremacism.com/Islamic_Supremacism/A_Classic_Jurist_From_Each_of_the_5_Schools.html
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2018 11:40 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

What would you do if you lived in Israel and there were all these attacks being launched in so many ways at you? Would you just ignore them and hope they stop?

I'd stop oppressing the Palestinian peoples by enfranchising them and giving them full rights in all of Palestine, all the while pursuing militant extremists on both sides.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 12:01 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
I'd stop oppressing the Palestinian peoples by enfranchising them
Are Canada and Mexico oppressing me by not letting me vote in their elections?

InfraBlue wrote:
and giving them full rights in all of Palestine,
The question of Palestinian rights is a matter for the Palestinian government. Nothing to do with Israel.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 01:52 am
The "nation state" law, which becomes part of Israel’s "basic laws" [constitution] passed by a vote of 62-55 with two abstentions.

I'm rather sure that in other democratic countries such a change would need a 2/3 majority.
Ragman
 
  4  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 08:18 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Not to defend this turn of events, but Israel is NOT a democracy so to compare it with democratic countries is a fallacious argument.
coldjoint
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 09:11 am
@Ragman,
Quote:
Not to defend this turn of events, but Israel is NOT a democracy

What country is a true democracy? We aren't.
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 10:47 am
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:
What country is a true democracy? We aren't.
The U.S.A. is representative democracy, and also a constitutional democracy.

See for instance here, here
and here.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 11:04 am
@Ragman,
It's definitely a debatable point. There's not much agreement in Israel on the point.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 12:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The U.S.A. is representative democracy,

I said true democracy. I know what kind of government I have. Can you come up with one?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 12:45 pm
@coldjoint,
I know that "True Democracy" is a roots reggae album by Steel Pulse.

But perhaps you were referring to direct democracy aka pure democracy?

I can come up with several, namely the Landsgemeinde in Switzerland.

(I have watched it on subnational political level a couple of times, on state level [Appenzell Innerrhoden] once.)
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 01:24 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
"True Democracy"

All I did was ask. You are spinning your wheels, Wally.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2018 06:20 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The only one passing around false accusations is you,
Liar.

izzythepush wrote:
you freedom hating Nazi.
Liar.

izzythepush wrote:
You are an anti Semite
Liar.

izzythepush wrote:
the child murdering policies of the treacherous NRA 5th Columnists.
Liar.

izzythepush wrote:
white European settlers killing the darker skinned indigenous people,
The Israelis are the indigenous people here. And they only kill in self defense.

izzythepush wrote:
you want somewhere to expel your own Jews.
Liar.

izzythepush wrote:
And lets face it if your NRA overlords told you they were now opposed to Israel you'd be talking about nuking Tel Aviv
Liar.

izzythepush wrote:
you've fantasised about nuking Rome.
Liar.

izzythepush wrote:
Everyone can see exactly what you are even if you can't.
Everyone can see that I'm an upstanding person who always does the right thing.
0 Replies
 
 

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