livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 12:04 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Let's be honest (for a change)...you DON'T want the current medicare system available to all.

Bernie doesn't either.

People just don't want to pay the high costs charged by practically everyone in medicine, from equipment to supplies to drugs to wages etc.

Insurance is about shifting the burden, and people are just too shortsighted to think about the shifted burden coming around to affect them in other aspects of their economic lives.

It's the same as when people steal from big corporations and think it won't matter because the system is so big and the corporations can afford the losses; but those who do pay end up paying more because of those who don't not paying any.

Things like sliding scales, etc. make it easier for people who make less to pay less, but you still have the problem that high prices/costs get subsidized somehow and that drives up expectations for business revenues, wages, etc.

So the challenge is how do you get everyone from medical schools to medical suppliers to work for less money, so that people who make less money can afford those things without subsidies.

If you attempt to lower prices/costs, you will get lots of criticism from those who claim quality of care will decline or that it's communism to expect anyone to work for less than whatever they want to charge/make.

Really there just need to be more low cost options for people getting their own medications, equipment/supplies, etc. for self-care/home-care and yet still somehow preventing the problems that regulations are designed to prevent, such as quackery, drug abuse, etc.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 12:45 pm
@Lash,
Bernie's plan? Or some other plan?
maporsche
 
  4  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:07 pm
@maporsche,
Bernie himself has said, many many times, that his Medicare for All bill is NOT the current system. Here's a direct quote.

"I hope senior citizens hear this: We are going to expand Medicare benefits for seniors to include dental care, hearing aids, and eye glasses, which many seniors today cannot afford because Medicare does not cover those benefits and we are going to provide those benefits," Sanders in a campaign video in July.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/08/politics/medicare-for-all-impact-senior-citizens/index.html

Additionally, he's expanded medicare for all to cover long term care (i.e. nursing homes).

Medicare currently has copayments, it covers about 80% of medical expenses for seniors, and does not cover prescription drugs (private medical insurance does that instead). Medicare has NO CAP on out of pocket expenses either.

So Bernie's bill is nothing like Medicare, except in name only.


Did you read his plan?
Do you know anything about the current medicare system?

Ignorance would be the only excuse for the misleading claims...otherwise we're back to dishonesty.
snood
 
  4  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:21 pm
@maporsche,
That’s the secret of her charm - an evergreen vindictiveness fueled by an inexhaustible willingness to be profoundly disingenuous.

Wins ya over every time.

Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:23 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

.

"I hope senior citizens hear this: We are going to expand Medicare benefits for seniors to include dental care, hearing aids, and eye glasses, which many seniors today cannot afford because Medicare does not cover those benefits and we are going to provide those benefits," Sanders in a campaign video in July.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/08/politics/medicare-for-all-impact-senior-citizens/index.html

Additionally, he's expanded medicare for all to cover long term care (i.e. nursing homes).

Medicare currently has copayments, it covers about 80% of medical expenses for seniors, and does not cover prescription drugs (private medical insurance
does that instead). Medicare has NO CAP on out of pocket expenses either.

So Bernie's bill is nothing like Medicare, except in name only.



For anyone reading this Brock bot who’s stupid enough to believe this guy isn’t lying his ass off, lemme help you.

It’s not just a hot dog for starving people—it’s a hot dog, ketchup, mustard, relish if you need it, a coke to wash it down with, medication capped at $200. a year, napkins, a better bun—all that and a bag of chips.

That’s what ‘expanding Medicare’ means—for the cognitively impaired.

layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:26 pm
A medicare participant currently pays about $7,500 a year for partial benefits. If they want more coverage for some of the unpaid costs, they pay another $2,000 or so.

So the plan is to "give" more benefits to EVERYONE? Who's gunna pay for that? Oh, yeah, that's right. Burnie would tax everyone at the rate of 100% on every penny they earn over $29,000. We all pay, see? Purty simple, aint it?

And everyone can live at the poverty line.

Winston Churchill wrote:
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."


If there's some poor people out there, there's only one FAIR thing to do, i.e., make everyone poor.

Yeah, that's the ticket!


hightor
 
  4  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:42 pm
@layman,
After we print enough money to cover the cost of the covid-19 recovery we can just keep the presses running and pump out a few trillion more for socialized medicine! Modern monetary theory, folks — no deficits anymore and we don't need revenue to pay anything off!
layman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:47 pm
@hightor,
Trump's an experienced businessman. He can take care of the national debt in one stroke. The U.S. will just "declare bankruptcy" and stiff every creditor.

Then we'll get a "fresh start," with no debt to worry about.

It worked for his businesses. It can work for the biggest "business" in the world, the USA, too.

America First, Baby!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 01:53 pm
@layman,
That’s not true. That tax on people making over $29K was probably mass-shared bullshit propaganda by Bloomberg, Biden, ******* David Brock or a Trump PAC.


https://www.10news.com/news/fact-or-fiction/fact-or-fiction-sanders-wants-52-tax-rate-on-people-making-more-than-29k

KGTV) - Does Bernie Sanders plan to pay for universal health care by raising the tax rate to 52% on anybody making more than $29,000 a year?


No.

The information in a meme being posted on social media is false.


layman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:16 pm
@Lash,
Well, I kinda misstated things when I implied that that's what Burnie is "calling for."

The question remains: How is he going to pay for it?

By independent mathematical analysis, he would have to tax everyone making over 29,000 at the rate of 100% to pay for it, or something equivalent thereto.

Of course there are other ways to pay for it, I suppose. He could, for example, just confiscate every last asset which is currently privately owned and probably pay for it that way.

He hasn't really said exactly "how" he's gunna pay for it, so who knows? The second option is probably what he really has in mind, eh?

After further consultation with the commies in Cuba who are running Venezuala, I'm sure he'll come up with *some* way to pay for it.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:26 pm
@layman,
Thanks for asking. He has actually said many times how he’ll pay for it, but the news and the DNC hate him more than Republicans do, so only people really seek out that information get it. I’ll eat a sandwich and give you a full answer.

Ham and turkey.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:34 pm
Medicare for All

Quote:
According to a February 15, 2020 study by epidemiologists at Yale University, the Medicare for All bill that Bernie wrote would save over $450 billion in health care costs and prevent 68,000 unnecessary deaths – each and every year.

What our current system costs over the next decade:

Over the next ten years, national health expenditures are projected to total approximately $52 trillion if we keep our current dysfunctional system.

How much we will save:

According to the Yale study and others, Medicare for All will save approximately $5 trillion over that same time period.

$52 trillion - $5 trillion = $47 trillion total

How we pay for it:

Current federal, state and local government spending over the next ten years is projected to total about $30 trillion.

The revenue options Bernie has proposed total $17.5 Trillion

$30 trillion + $17.5 trillion = $47.5 Trillion total

Sources:

https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/NationalHealthAccountsProjected

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext#%20

Since 2016, Bernie has proposed a menu of financing options that would more than pay for the Medicare for All legislation he has introduced according to the Yale study.

These options include:

Creating a 4 percent income-based premium paid by employees, exempting the first $29,000 in income for a family of four.

In 2018, the typical working family paid an average of $6,015 in premiums to private health insurance companies. Under this option, a typical family of four earning $60,000, would pay a 4 percent income-based premium to fund Medicare for All on income above $29,000 – just $1,240 a year – saving that family $4,775 a year. Families of four making less than $29,000 a year would not pay this premium.

(Revenue raised: About $4 trillion over 10 years.)

Imposing a 7.5 percent income-based premium paid by employers, exempting the first $1 million in payroll to protect small businesses.

In 2018, employers paid an average of $14,561 in private health insurance premiums for a worker with a family of four. Under this option, employers would pay a 7.5 percent payroll tax to help finance Medicare for All – just $4,500 – a savings of more than $10,000 a year.

(Revenue raised: Over $5.2 trillion over 10 years.)

Eliminating health tax expenditures, which would no longer be needed under Medicare for All.

(Revenue raised: About $3 trillion over 10 years.)

Raising the top marginal income tax rate to 52% on income over $10 million.

(Revenue raised: About $700 billion over 10 years.)

Replacing the cap on the state and local tax deduction with an overall dollar cap of $50,000 for a married couple on all itemized deductions.

(Revenue raised: About $400 billion over 10 years.)

Taxing capital gains at the same rates as income from wages and cracking down on gaming through derivatives, like-kind exchanges, and the zero tax rate on capital gains passed on through bequests.

(Revenue raised: About $2.5 trillion over 10 years.)

Enacting the For the 99.8% Act, which returns the estate tax exemption to the 2009 level of $3.5 million, closes egregious loopholes, and increases rates progressively including by adding a top tax rate of 77% on estate values in excess of $1 billion.

(Revenue raised: $336 billion over 10 years.)

Enacting corporate tax reform including restoring the top federal corporate income tax rate to 35 percent.

(Revenue raised: $3 trillion ,of which $1 trillion would be used to help finance Medicare for All and $2 trillion would be used for the Green New Deal.)

Using $350 billion of the amount raised from the tax on extreme wealth to help finance Medicare for All.


source

Of course, this was before the plague hit. It'll be back to the drawing board. These numbers are from a Sanders site. It doesn't take long to find all sorts of pages which raise questions and dispute numbers. But, as I said, this provisional plan is already obsolete.
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:57 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

For anyone reading this Brock bot who’s stupid enough to believe this guy isn’t lying his ass off, lemme help you.

It’s not just a hot dog for starving people—it’s a hot dog, ketchup, mustard, relish if you need it, a coke to wash it down with, medication capped at $200. a year, napkins, a better bun—all that and a bag of chips.

That’s what ‘expanding Medicare’ means—for the cognitively impaired.


Cognitively impaired? Interesting.

You said:
Quote:
The successful program we have in place—that Sanders, me, and millions of others want to expand to everyone is: Medicare.

We’d like to make it: For All.


I said:
Quote:
Let's be honest (for a change)...you DON'T want the current medicare system available to all.

Bernie doesn't either.


You said:
Quote:
Wrong. Read the plan.


To which I provided many ways the current plan is nothing like Bernie's plan.

To which you agreed with your useful hotdog analogy.

You said you wanted to expand the successful program THAT WE HAVE IN PLACE (the hotdog) to everyone.

To which I said, let's be honest, you don't want everyone to have the hotdog. (You want WAAAAY more than the hotdog, even including a drink and a bag of chips.)

To which you call me a liar.



Anyone who is NOT cognitively impaired can see who indeed is Lash.





So, let's be honest for a change... you DO NOT want the CURRENT SYSTEM THAT EXISTS TODAY expanded to all. Do you Lash?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 02:57 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
Current federal, state and local government spending over the next ten years is projected to total about $30 trillion.

The revenue options Bernie has proposed total $17.5 Trillion

$30 trillion + $17.5 trillion = $47.5 Trillion total


Admittedly, I haven't tried to read and digest all the numbers given in that post, but, one question that immediately comes to mind is this:

How in the hell does what the government will need to spend on other things supposedly "pay" for medicare? What's the "connection?"

Let's say that Burnie's commie-ass, economy-wrecking proposals really would raise an additional 17.5 trillion. How does that pay for the 47.5 trillion which is required to pay for medicare alone?

Why are they ADDING 30 trillion to 17.5 trillion to "get" 47.5 trillion. Arbitrarily adding two random numbers together doesn't "pay" for anything.

The initial claim is this:
Quote:
Current federal, state and local government spending over the next ten years is projected to total about $30 trillion.


News flash: "Spending" is not "income."
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 03:00 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

an evergreen vindictiveness fueled by an inexhaustible willingness to be profoundly disingenuous.


Lol....love that.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 03:05 pm
@layman,
Not only that Layman, but the lancet study that this relies on for cost is full of problems.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 03:06 pm
Basically, we’re soaking the ******* billionaires!!! Woooohooooo!!!!!

https://www.barrons.com/articles/billionaires-should-not-exist-bernie-sanders-rolls-out-a-plan-for-a-wealth-tax-51569343144?mod=article_inline

Excerpt:

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I., Vt.) has proposed taxing the wealth of the richest Americans, framing the objective of his “Extreme Wealth Tax” in stark terms: “Billionaires should not exist,” he tweeted Tuesday.

Sanders’s plan calls for an up to 8% annual tax on wealth over $16 million for individuals and $32 million for married couples. The tax would begin at 1% per year for those above that threshold and gradually rise to a maximum of 8% for those with assets of $10 billion or more.

Such a tax would apply to about 180,000 households and raise $4.35 trillion in revenue over 10 years, according to an analysis by University of California, Berkeley professors Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman.

Saez and Zucman consulted with the Sanders campaign on the proposal. They also worked with rival presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.) on her wealth tax proposal, which they estimated would raise $2.75 trillion over a decade.

Warren’s plan calls for a 2% annual tax on assets over $50 million, rising to 3% on wealth over $1 billion. The tax would apply to about 75,000 American households, with fewer than 1,000 hit with the highest 3% rate.

“Enough is enough,” Sanders said in a statement. “We are going to take on the billionaire class, substantially reduce wealth inequality in America, and stop our democracy from turning into a corrupt oligarchy.”

_____________________________

You’ll GET a benefit, and the ridiculously wealthy will pay closer to their fair share.

layman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 03:11 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
Sanders’s plan calls for an up to 8% annual tax on wealth over $16 million for individuals and $32 million for married couples. The tax would begin at 1% per year for those above that threshold and gradually rise to a maximum of 8% for those with assets of $10 billion or more.


1. 16 million is not a billion

2 At the rate of 8% per year, half the assets of someone worth 2 billion would be gone in 12 years.

3. Just what I thought. His commie-ass plan is to confiscate private assets.

Fortunately for Burnie, his current net worth is just a little short of 16 million. At least they won't be stealing his assets. How convenient, eh?
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 03:12 pm
@Lash,
"We're" doing nothing but losing the primary.

The revolution is not showing up to vote.
The revolution has...failed, at least in 2020.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2020 03:36 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
Sanders’s plan calls for an up to 8% annual tax on wealth over $16 million for individuals and $32 million for married couples. The tax would begin at 1% per year for those above that threshold and gradually rise to a maximum of 8% for those with assets of $10 billion or more.


1. 16 million is not a billion

2 At the rate of 8% per year, half the assets of someone worth 2 billion would be gone in 12 years.

3. Just what I thought. His commie-ass plan is to confiscate private assets.

Fortunately for Burnie, his current net worth is just a little short of 16 million. At least they won't be stealing his assets. How convenient, eh?


8% on $16million
Not 52% on $29K.
I can live with it.
What bothers you?
Do you even have $1million?

I’m unconcerned about 8% on $16million.
They are definitely unconcerned about you.

People who are dying because they can’t afford to go to the doctor deserve concern—not people who have more than they could ever need paying 8%.
 

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