Brand X
 
  3  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2020 05:26 pm
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
@AOC
·
2h
Replying to
@AOC
It is important to fight for the issues, advance your argument, and grow the cause.

To do so, the questions that organizers or anyone seeking to advance a cause or campaign should always ask themselves are: who else can we include, and how can we listen and include them?
Zach Stern
@SternOne
·
2h
Replying to
@AOC
Agreed. I’m curious though why it is that Senator Sanders has utterly done everything possible to alienate potential moderates that could have come on board. Why is it a my way or the high way attitude?

What has Sanders done to demonstrate adaptability?
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2020 05:28 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
for months all we heard from his camp is how the media doesn't pay enough attention to him.

Good point. And yes, he does sound here like Trump. And some of his supporters, including Sirota, often do.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 04:44 am
Quote:
(...) People are concerned that there has been some sort of a corrupt bargain between the “Democratic establishment”—possibly even including former President Barack Obama-- and retiring presidential candidates Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar to throw the Democratic nomination to former Vice President Joe Biden in order to thwart the popular will to nominate Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders.

First of all, the nomination process is not over, and there is not currently a winner. Second, the nomination has not been rigged. This is a deeply problematic construction at a time when our actual elections really ARE in danger; it is also an argument pushed by Russian disinformation to undermine faith in democracy.

Here’s how the Democratic nomination process currently works. (I am not going to talk here about the Republican system—I’ve talked about it before—but it permits less input from voters than the Democratic system.)

First of all, neither the Republican Party nor the Democratic Party, nor any other party, is a government institution. While they have to abide by our laws, they make their own rules, and a LOT of jockeying goes into the writing of those rules. (FWIW, Sanders is the only candidate running who had a hand in writing the current Democratic National Committee rules. Three of his top advisors were on the commission that wrote the current rules, and he chose four others.)

The process is crazy-complicated, but it makes more sense if you know some of the history behind it. Democratic presidential candidates used to be chosen by party leaders, behind closed doors.

(...)

Before the 2016 election, as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Sanders tussled to win the nomination, the DNC overwhelmingly voted to change the rules to compromise between the two camps. Under those rules, a new commission of 21 people, including 9 nominated by Clinton and 7 by Sanders, met in 2017. They reduced the percentage of superdelegates to about 15% again, and refused to let them vote on a first ballot, bringing them in only if the nomination is contested.

So back to the question of rigging. The Sanders camp wanted to get rid of the superdelegates altogether, believing it would help him win the 2020 nomination. But they had to compromise on keeping the superdelegates from voting on the first ballot, expecting that he could win quickly with a majority if the superdelegates stayed out of it. But now that it looks like he will likely not win outright, he will likely be sunk when the superdelegates are in play on a second ballot. So now he wants the nomination to go to someone with a plurality of delegates—that is, not a clear majority, but more than anyone else—on the first ballot. This would be highly unusual: brokered conventions used to be the norm, and they are a good way to unite the party behind a candidate.

But do members of the Democratic establishment—those who could be superdelegates—want Sanders as the nominee? Almost certainly not. They do not think he is electable. He is not popular with African American voters, who are a key part of the Democratic Party’s base, and he has a history that will play badly with moderate voters.

Are they right that he is unelectable? Before Tuesday, I was not at all certain of that. But Sanders’s big play for the nomination has been that he could bring new voters into the party by attracting young people. He certainly is popular with younger folks, but they did not turn up to vote for him on Tuesday, suggesting his key strength is not as strong as it seemed. Still, political prognostications at this stage of the game are a fool’s game. My opinion and $3 will get you a cup of coffee.

Did Buttigieg or Klobuchar cut a deal with Biden before endorsing him? Almost certainly. But that is not a corrupt deal; it’s how politics works. If they followed the norm, they will have gotten him to promise to make a priority in his administration (if he is elected) something they and their supporters care about. This is key to the other part of the nomination process that is going on now: hashing out the issues (they’re known as “planks”) that will be in the party’s platform, indicating its priorities. The jockeying going on now between voters and candidates and the party’s eventual leader is key to that construction.

(...)

letters from an american march 4, 2020
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 05:08 am
@blatham,
A lot of acid has been thrown towards him, that's undeniable. To my knowledge it is a fact that no other campaign has been compared with the Nazis.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 05:13 am
@engineer,
Quote:
If Sanders really wanted a progressive candidate, he could really, really upend the race by dropping out and supporting Warren. That would be amazing.

Indeed. Alternatively, if the DNC really wanted to block Sanders, they could ask Biden to drop out of the race and support Warren.

Seems to me she would be less of a do-nothing than Biden, and more acceptable to the party rank and file than Sanders.
hightor
 
  5  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 05:26 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
To my knowledge it is a fact that no other campaign has been compared with the Nazis.

But this isn't a widespread comparison at all. It derives from one incident in the media by a hot-headed screamer of a host who has since stepped down for other reasons. And, as I tried to point out to oralloy yesterday, the comparison had nothing to do with the ideology of the Nazis, just their apparent unstoppability. He could have said "tsunami" instead. It was a stupid, one-off, spur-of-the-moment comment which doesn't deserve a prominent place in the Sanders campaign's defense strategy. Continued references to it serve no truthful purpose.
Setanta
 
  6  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 06:08 am
There is a wry irony in Oralloy commenting on such an issue. He began calling for the Democratic Party to be outlawed in 2017, after the Russian investigation began. Of course, the witch-hunt meme is a witless contention, because a Republican-controlled Congress initiated the investigation.

The irony is that the classic first operational move when fascists take over is the elimination of political opposition. After the passage of the Reichstag Fire Act and the Enabling Act, in 1933, the Nazis outlawed all other parties. Oralloy would like to see that here.
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 07:17 am
@hightor,
Quote:
But this isn't a widespread comparison at all. It derives from one incident in the media by a hot-headed screamer of a host who has since stepped down for other reasons. And, as I tried to point out to oralloy yesterday, the comparison had nothing to do with the ideology of the Nazis, just their apparent unstoppability. He could have said "tsunami" instead. It was a stupid, one-off, spur-of-the-moment comment which doesn't deserve a prominent place in the Sanders campaign's defense strategy. Continued references to it serve no truthful purpose.


It serves Sanders purpose of using victimhood as a tool in his campaign strategy. Like Trump when he said he has been treated worse than Lincoln.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 07:20 am
@Olivier5,
But if Biden supported Warren, that doesn't allow the party to decide between the more moderate and progressive wings. The moderate side has narrowed to a single flag bearer, the progressive side needs to do the same. In many ways, Sanders is Clinton. He has a loyal and passionate following but also a lot of negatives with the other side of the party. If he really wanted to shake up the party he could do that by endorsing Warren. She's well regarded by his base, pushes the same policies for the most part, but is well regarded by the other side as well. It's Sanders' last chance to compromise to achieve his goals. Of course that is a pipe dream given that Sanders is ahead in the polls over Warren and compromise is not his thing.
snood
 
  4  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 07:46 am
It’s a little stunning to me that Bernie didn’t even take a couple of beats to consider why his clock was so sparkly cleaned on Super Tuesday, before launching into his age-old whine about how it was a cabal of billionaires that were to blame.
Is he just pretending not to notice that millions of black folk propelled Biden’s victories? Or is he actually this stuck?
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 08:04 am
@snood,
I have noticed a lot of people seem to be condescending towards the black vote, talking about undue influence all the time. Funny you don't hear the same about other communities; such as the young Latino vote which Bernie gets.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 08:10 am
@hightor,
I doubt Matthews would have used the same metaphor to say that, e.g., Biden is fast securing an unsurmontable lead. There was a sense of doom in the phrase, which is symptomatic of how quite a few of the in-crowd journalists are viewing Sanders as pretty much the devil.

In general, people are quick to take offense, much slower to admit that they too might be offenders. So the centrists are horrified by what some of the bros are saying, and the bros are horrified by what some centrists are saying. Or pretend to be, because there's a fair amount of victim posturing in both cases, i would think.
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 08:15 am
@Brand X,
Quote:
What has Sanders done to demonstrate adaptability?


Skipping the Selma anniversary right after losing SC didn't show too much adaptability. Speaking of the media, he basically gets a pass on it.

Sanders gets pass after being only major candidate to skip 55th anniversary of Bloody Sunday in Selma


Quote:
Tami Burages
@tburages

One candidate chose to join with the other Dem candidates to commemorate Bloody Sunday yesterday.

The other chose to fly to California to listen to thousands of supporters shouting his name.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 08:23 am
@engineer,
Why should the party decide between its two legs? They won't run faster on just one leg... by that I mean the Dems are a big tent party, not one defined by ideology, and it benefits from internal diversity.

Warren would be a good synthesis between Biden and Sandrrs, able to straddle the divide. The best of both sides in a way. She was also in the Obama admin.

I agree it's not in the cards. Instead, she might drop out. But it be interesting to see who she endorses, and also if Biden or Sanders would offer her a place on the ticket.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 08:49 am
@revelette3,
I could show you a bunch of tweets and chat messages from nasty Bernie supporters(a typical one was “I can’t believe we’re letting scared blacks in SC choose our candidate.”). But no one seems to believe the number of Bernie supporters who communicate this way.
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 08:59 am
@Olivier5,
Good points. I think the "sin" belongs entirely to Matthews, however, and not to all the "in-crowd journalists" who have had the sense not to use such inflammatory comparisons.

As far as journalists viewing Sanders in a negative light, well, what if they really don't like him, doubt his effectiveness as a chief executive, and have no interest in "our revolution"? Journalists — unlike reporters — aren't ethically bound to standards of objectivity, only to truth. It's been interesting looking at the opinion columnists on the NYT, who only last week were preparing us for a Sanders candidacy and skirting around their personal objections as much as possible and who are now free to ask tougher questions and unleash harsher criticism.

And, on a smaller scale, we see the same thing on A2K, and I imagine in the Democratic base as well. If people's misgivings about Sanders as a candidate are beginning to surface now, I don't think their opinion of the man himself will improve as he begins to lash out at Biden, personifying the stereotypical "crotchety old guy" role for which he's so well suited; he looks like somebody sent over by Central Casting.

I guess it boils down to whether Democrats favor democratic socialism and are willing to risk a second Trump administration in its pursuit or prefer a more inclusive and gradualist message. Now that the field has cleared we'll finally get a chance to find out.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 09:01 am
@snood,
Quote:
But no one seems to believe the number of Bernie supporters who communicate this way.

I'm waiting for them to start blaming these on the same "Russian trolls" whose influence, and even existence, they've continually denied.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 09:04 am
Zaid Jilani
@ZaidJilani
·
9h
Rep. Khanna is the best Sanders surrogate. He understands moral reframing and the reality that the way you persuade someone is by arguing to their values and not yours.
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 09:22 am
@Brand X,
Quote:
moral reframing


What does that even mean? Reframing? I can give you a good example of reframing.

Quote:
"Well, I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number. Now, and this is just my hunch, and — but based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people that do this. Because a lot people will have this and it's very mild. They'll get better very rapidly. They don't even see a doctor. They don't even call a doctor," Trump said.


https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/05/trump-disputes-coronavirus-death-rate-121892

But I understand where you got this. It's in the piece about Sanders hatching his comeback.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/04/bernie-sanders-joe-biden-2020-election-121582

As though older people haven't heard Bernie Sanders one track message yet.

In any event, a person could even question whether Sanders could stick to the change suggested, much less his supporters, to win over moderates and the black vote.

Quote:
It also remains to be seen whether Sanders’ campaign and the candidate himself will stick to this shift. Sanders’ refusal to change is simultaneously his greatest political asset and potentially fatal flaw.

Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2020 09:33 am
@revelette3,
It means this:
Quote:
the way you persuade someone is by arguing to their values and not yours.
0 Replies
 
 

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