Progressives (Liberals)

@oralloy,

I leave you to your "cherry-picked data". This thread is about progressives.

On the night before the debate in Charleston, ahead of the critical South Carolina primary on Saturday, Biden introduced himself as such:

"Hi! My name is Joe Biden, and I'm a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate."

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@Olivier5,

That would be your cherry picked data. You're the one who wants to accept it as valid.

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@oralloy,

Move this discussion to a CC-related thread, or **** off.

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@Olivier5,

I'll defend myself from your untrue statements about me on the threads where you make those untrue statements.

And I'll post what I like where I like.

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@oralloy,

Whatever.

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@blatham,

Quote:

It was infuriating.

I wonder what's the point of doing so many debates... This was the 10th one, and the tone seems to be worse and worse. How many dozens of TV debates do voters need to pick a candidate?

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@Brand X,

Quote:

It's impossible to overstate the imperial hypocrisy of US politicians and pundits criticizing Bernie over Cuba and Nicaragua, while they are right now supporting the right-wing coup dictatorships in Bolivia and Honduras, Brazil's fascist regime, and Trump's Venezuelan coup puppet

Well yes, that's true. But it doesn't mean the majority of US voters feel that way and it doesn't mean that a presidential primary campaign is a good place to attempt to draw this distinction.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

How many dozens of TV debates do voters need to pick a candidate?

It might help if they were run as actual debates. The circular firing squad venue is stupid — not just because it makes the candidates behave like squabbling kids — it doesn't tell us anything about their qualifications to hold the office they're seeking. By definition, a chief executive doesn't have to engage in shouting matches with those around him.

Actually, I'd much prefer seeing candidates give well-thought out responses to carefully crafted questions and not having to shout to be heard. The problems facing this country won't be solved with sound bites and clever one-liners. I'd like to hear how each individual candidate would reply to a series of historical and hypothetical questions. These questions would be asked of each candidate individually, with some followup questions by a panel of respected moderators. Their individual responses would be played. No live audience. No group of candidates giving one-and-a-half minute responses. No interaction between candidates at all. Each candidate would, of course, be free to critique the others' answers while campaigning.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
It was infuriating.

I wonder what's the point of doing so many debates... This was the 10th one, and the tone seems to be worse and worse. How many dozens of TV debates do voters need to pick a candidate?

I started a thread a while back that sort of dovetails with your point about an unnecessarily large number of debates. I think the length of time (two years? more?) that Americans give to presidential campaigns is at least counterproductive, and I think it’s ludicrous.

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@oralloy,

your "facts" are mostly opinions, yours okr someone else you cite, not facts. You make no differentiation between the two. they're mostly poorly thought out., particularly for someone who claims to be so intelligent. Show a little intelligence for a change.

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Bernie is on record in 2011 making the case for why it would be good for someone to primary Obama.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/bernie-sanders-primary-obama-2012-social-security.htmlM

When asked about this now, he says that’s all taken out of context- really as if he never even thought about anyone mounting a primary challenge - much less promoted the idea.

My point is, when confronted with things he’s said and done in the past that he thinks would be impolitic for his present campaign, he simply lies.

It’s a point that I see the need to make over and over, to combat the persistent ‘Bernie the pure and incorrigible’ meme.

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@hightor,

I agree about the structure of the debates - one could wish for something better than the ponderous questions of self-appointed media experts and the shouting for air time that results. However I suspect most of the fault comes from the combination of two factors: (1) the particular competitive factors attending the various candidates and the wider-than-acknowledged separation of views among them; and (2) the derailment of a potential consensus party platform by outsider candidates attempting to take the party by storm - and the reactions of others to them.

These conditions existed in the 2016 Republican debates as well, and the results then were similar to what we see now..

Frankly I find all the "my plan.... " stuff to be stupid and unrealistic. This is a democracy and absent any united party platform there isn't any way a single candidate could work his/her way through the Congress without at least party unity behind him. (Trump was very limited by that in his first two years).

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@hightor,

Quote:

It might help if they were run as actual debates. The circular firing squad venue is stupid — not just because it makes the candidates behave like squabbling kids

I agree.

I was quickly turned off by the mudslinging and then the chance for the recipient of the mud to respond. It got crazy quick.

The moderators were truly awful in both their questions and the responsibility as moderators.

I am tired of the debates.

If I had my way I would vote for Klobuchar, but I can't see how she is even able to stay in the race. I am less impressed Buttigieg than I used to be, I haven't heard too many policy proposals from him or ideas at all. I am sick unto death of Sanders arm waving and finger punctuation gestures. I feel sorry for Biden but think he would still be better than the rest of the field even given that he seems a shadow of his former self. He did better last night, but still, you can tell time and age has caught up with him. Bloomberg does awful at debates. Warren goes after Bloomberg hard but she needs to put all that passion into going after Bernie as it is his votes she needs. I think she is afraid of Bernie's supporters going after her in return.

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It seems some Murikans are sort of scared an "extremist" "populist" like Sanders gets to be the Democratic candidate...Two comments on that:

First, Sanders is only considered populist and extreme left from a US POV in Europe we would be seen as a normal moderate candidate.

Second, go vote against Trump if you are a Democrat!

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Why do we have to be like Europe? Nothing against Europe, but we are who we are in the US.

I simply don't agree with Sanders' Medicare for All and free universities and all his other programs which cost an untold amount of money which will end up hurting the middle class the most, even considering the cost-saving from Medicare for All and taking money from the Military industries.

Plus I don't see a reason why we should have to pay our tax dollars to put people who are extremely wealthy through college or their health care. I think that idea should be based on needs and individual personal wealth. Maybe do away with College loans altogether and pay for free college for those who need it but still collect revenue from those who don't need help with college. I mean why does everything have to be all or nothing?

Having said all of that, I will still vote Sanders should he be nominee, I won't even have to hold my nose to do it.

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@snood,

for the 2016 primaries, the DNC organized 6 official TV debates, which they considered at the time "a reasonable number and in line with what the national committee sanctioned in 2008". But for 2020, they scheduled 12 official TV debates... And there's been an inflation in the number of candidates as well. No wonder people are turning off.

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@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

your "facts" are mostly opinions, yours or someone else you cite, not facts.

Wrong again. You cannot provide any examples of me ever referring to opinions as facts.

MontereyJack wrote:

You make no differentiation between the two.

Wrong again. You cannot provide any examples of me ever failing to distinguish between opinions and facts.

MontereyJack wrote:

they're mostly poorly thought out., particularly for someone who claims to be so intelligent.

That is a nonsensical claim, since facts are not "thought out".

But, I should add, you cannot provide any examples of anything that is poorly thought out in any of my posts.

MontereyJack wrote:

Show a little intelligence for a change.

You cannot provide any examples of me ever failing to show intelligence.

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Michael Tracey
@mtracey
·
5m
"Facts First." CNN fact-checkers have proclaimed it Factually True that the "US Intelligence Community" has a "belief" that Russia is "trying to help" the Bernie campaign. Of course, no "facts" required regarding the nature of this "belief" or whether there's any evidence for it

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@revelette3,

revelette3 wrote:

[If I had my way I would vote for Klobuchar, but I can't see how she is even able to stay in the race. I am less impressed Buttigieg than I used to be, I haven't heard too many policy proposals from him or ideas at all. I am sick unto death of Sanders arm waving and finger punctuation gestures. I feel sorry for Biden but think he would still be better than the rest of the field even given that he seems a shadow of his former self. He did better last night, but still, you can tell time and age has caught up with him. Bloomberg does awful at debates.

We have very different political perspectives, but I agree with you on all these points.

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