Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:07 am
@blatham,
What I said was not silly, Blat, and I take exception to you using this Trumpian-style terminology.

It's impossible to rule twitter and you know this. Therefore you are setting up Sanders to an impossible task; you're placing the bar way to high, with or without leadership skills.

The job at hand is to beat Trump, not redeem twitter from its turpitude. This being a given, I'd rather have Sanders keep his eyes on the ball than start berating his supporters. He regularly calls for calm, decency and focus. That's doing enough, and more than the other candidates do.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:10 am
@hightor,
Quote:
I think a less "radical" candidate would have an easier time cobbling together a winning coalition.

Not anymore. That was the old paradigm, but now there's a thirst for authenticity, for clarity of thought. The coalition behind Sanders is very diverse, and keep diversifying. He represents your best chance to get rid of Trump.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:12 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
I should note that what Dobbs did there does serve a particular purpose. The most damaging aspect of all this is the validated perception that Barr is turning the Department of Justice into a servile lapdog of an authoritarian tyrant. Dobb's rant can be understood, perhaps, as a distraction from that perception.

Who told you to think that?

The idea that "the President is an authoritarian tyrant" is leftist hysteria.

The idea that "the Department of Justice is the servile lapdog of the President" was written into the text of the Constitution by the Founding Fathers.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:16 am
@snood,
snood wrote:
AOC on likelihood of M4A getting passed: "The worst-case scenario? We compromise deeply and we end up getting a public option. Is that a nightmare? I don't think so," she said.

Are there any indications that she even knows what a public option is? Most progressives don't have any idea.

Not that I necessarily oppose a public option (and I do know what it is). I chose the public option under Obamacare until the Trump Administration ended it. If it was brought back, I'd likely choose it again.

But I am a bit alarmed over the prospect of progressives changing our healthcare system when they don't even know what they are doing.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:23 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
It's impossible to rule twitter and you know this.
Of course it is. And it was impossible for MLK to "rule" every black voice during the 50 and 60s or for Gandhi to "rule" every Hindu voice or for Obama to "rule" every supporter's voice. This isn't a matter of absolutes. It's a matter of degree. And I'm arguing that Sanders has not been meeting an acceptable level of success in corralling the bad players. This hurts him, his movement and it hurts all the rest of us at a time when unity is of greater importance than ever in our lifetimes. This crap has to stop. And he's the one to stop it. This is more than a leadership test but it is also that.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:35 am
@blatham,
What has to stop? People posting facts that you wish were not true?

No. It doesn't have to stop, and it's not going to stop.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:37 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I think a less "radical" candidate would have an easier time cobbling together a winning coalition.

Not anymore. That was the old paradigm, but now there's a thirst for authenticity, for clarity of thought. The coalition behind Sanders is very diverse, and keep diversifying. He represents your best chance to get rid of Trump.


Clarity of thought is easily achieved by lifelong zealots for various causes who steadfastly ignore the unintended and unanticipated side effects of the policies they advocate, and the universally dismal results that follow their application across the world. I agree there is a contemporary thirst for such authenticity on the part of folks looking for simple answers to very complex issues, and who are willing to believe that the Emperor indeed is wearing a fine suit of clothes.

Sanders is unelectable in this country. He is in many ways a more amiable version of Jeremy Corbyn in the UK. His surging popularity among a very enthusiastic minority of Democrat voters is indeed reflective of a growing, deep divide within the Democrat party, which directly threatens its political prospects in the coming election.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:48 am
A bit more on Barr/Trump. I think this is a smart take.
Quote:
Susan Hennessey, Lawfare: “Bill Barr is reportedly facing an internal revolt at the Justice Department … This is Bill Barr attempting to quell that revolt by making a big, splashy statement.”
NYT

Barr very clearly has a serious political agenda. In order to implement as much of that as he can, he will be obstructed by a DOJ which is not sufficiently aligned with him or which in important ways is opposed to his designs. So it may be not just or even mainly a matter of appearances of improper subservience. It may be much more important to Barr than that.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:51 am
@blatham,
Good grief. If that's the problem, he should fire the people who are revolting against him.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 09:53 am
@blatham,
Quote:
I'm arguing that Sanders has not been meeting an acceptable level of success in corralling the bad players.

For that argument to have any precise meaning, you will need to 1) define what you would consider an acceptable level of performance; and 2) apply this standard across the board, not just to Sanders. Otherwise it's just another way to spread venon and confusion.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 10:08 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
who steadfastly ignore the unintended and unanticipated side effects of the policies they advocate
This is a statement you make with notable frequency. But in all cases I can recall you forwarding the notion, you apply it only to a failure found exclusively (or certainly mainly) on the left. The failure of good intentions, etc. It's not a strong argument as you tend to frame it.

Any/all actions any of us take individually or as members of a community will inevitably have unintended consequences. Take Trump's border wall. Take tax cuts for the wealthy. Take Citizens United. Take the initiation of war with Iraq.

But you prefer to wield the argument as a critique of, particularly, lefty policies designed to help those fellow citizens who are disadvantaged by existing social or economic regimes.

I confess that isn't an altogether unreasonable position. After all, that's what many of us are criticizing about Sanders' notions. Or what many of us have complained about regarding certain elements of the feminist movement. Etc.

But what is notable to me is your failure to carry over this observation of human behavior to your political/ideological camp. It really rather comes across as a formulation which must paint Jesus as a woolly-headed, cloud-inhabiting fool. And Roman soldiers as the realistic, get-things-done guys.

georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 10:12 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

A bit more on Barr/Trump. I think this is a smart take.
Quote:
Susan Hennessey, Lawfare: “Bill Barr is reportedly facing an internal revolt at the Justice Department … This is Bill Barr attempting to quell that revolt by making a big, splashy statement.”

Barr very clearly has.

In order to implement as much of that as he can, he will be obstructed by a DOJ which is not sufficiently aligned with him or which in important ways is opposed to his designs. So it may be not just or even mainly a matter of appearances of improper subservience. It may be much more important to Barr than that.


It appears here you are suggesting that a "deep state" of career bureaucrats and Obama holdovers in the Justice Department is working to thwart the will of the duly nominated and Senate confirmed Attorney General.

I'm inclined to agree with you.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 10:18 am
@Olivier5,

1) Take this event. Find me a comparable occurrence at any other national convention. Then try to convince me this won't happen again if Sanders is not the nominee. (PS... one of the loud voices up in the balcony, a female, was later revealed to be a GOP operative).

2) Do a count of the posts Lash has written here devoted to trashing the Dem party and other candidates matching her content with any other poster who supports a different candidate.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 10:24 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It appears here you are suggesting that a "deep state" of career bureaucrats and Obama holdovers in the Justice Department is working to thwart the will of the duly nominated and Senate confirmed Attorney General.
No. I'm really talking about how people like you justify the politicization of the DOJ and the courts so long as you see partisan advantage. Where the law and the implementation of the law is always necessarily subservient to your political ambitions. So long as your side holds the power. But never otherwise.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 10:30 am
@blatham,
I presume that "politicization of the courts" refers to Republican efforts to nominate judges who respect and adhere to the Constitution?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 10:36 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
who steadfastly ignore the unintended and unanticipated side effects of the policies they advocate
This is a statement you make with notable frequency. But in all cases I can recall you forwarding the notion, you apply it only to a failure found exclusively (or certainly mainly) on the left. The failure of good intentions, etc. It's not a strong argument as you tend to frame it.

Any/all actions any of us take individually or as members of a community will inevitably have unintended consequences. Take Trump's border wall. Take tax cuts for the wealthy. Take Citizens United. Take the initiation of war with Iraq.

But you prefer to wield the argument as a critique of, particularly, lefty policies designed to help those fellow citizens who are disadvantaged by existing social or economic regimes.

I confess that isn't an altogether unreasonable position. After all, that's what many of us are criticizing about Sanders' notions. Or what many of us have complained about regarding certain elements of the feminist movement. Etc.


Interesting point. I do agree that unintended side effects and consequences are a common feature accompanying sometimes grandiose human plans - whether arising from the political left or right. I believe the imbalance you perceive has more to do with the higher incidence of such plans among "progressives" who seek to improve the human condition in nearly all situation through the action of government - actions which history confirms are replete with such unanticipated effects. I strongly prefer limited government and the preservation of individual freedom of action in most such circumstances.


blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 10:59 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I believe the imbalance you perceive has more to do with the higher incidence of such plans among "progressives" who seek to improve the human condition in nearly all situation through the action of government - actions which history confirms are replete with such unanticipated effects.
If not government, who makes the rules? The bully? The wealthy guys with a private army? The religious tyrant with his wild-eyed followers? The Mafia bosses and the drug cartels? The nobility? Corrupt tycoons who want more wealth, more power? The individuals who are born with an over-arching need to dominate everyone around them?

The reason that the West has produced such incredible advances in so many fields of human endeavor and in broad health and wealth of citizens is through representative democratic governance. We've lived through a golden age, you and I and the others here. Libertarians have produced no such legacy. Nothing remotely close.

And by the by... tell me what you think about Lou Dobbs' assertion that William Barr is a creature of the Deep State.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 11:03 am
@blatham,
Lou Dobbs thinks Trump is a masterful example of manhood and leadership.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 11:06 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
If not government, who makes the rules? The bully? The wealthy guys with a private army? The religious tyrant with his wild-eyed followers? The Mafia bosses and the drug cartels? The nobility? Corrupt tycoons who want more wealth, more power? The individuals who are born with an over-arching need to dominate everyone around them?

No one is saying that Congress should not pass laws.

No one is saying that our courts should not interpret those laws.

No one is saying that the President should not enforce the laws passed by Congress as they are interpreted by the courts.

That does not change the reality that the President is the executive branch, and the Department of Justice exists only to do what the President tells them to do.

Now if you had evidence that the President was actually defying court orders, that would be cause for alarm. But you don't, do you?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Feb, 2020 11:08 am
Quote:
Why There Is No Democratic ‘Never Bernie’ Movement
By Ed Kilgore

Conservative columnist Philip Klein has a question that he turns into a taunt. The headline of his piece is: “Where are all the Never Bernie Democrats?” And he suggests that it’s because Democrats don’t quite have the moral fiber of the Never Trump Republicans of four years ago.

Klein acknowledges the the kvetching you hear from Bernie-phobic Democrats is mostly based on doubts about his electability, not his character or his compatibility with what Democrats generally want. But to him that’s an indictment:
Quote:
Sure, there are plenty of liberals panicking about the prospect of a Sanders nomination. But the arguments are primarily focused on his electability or about how his plans would never pass through the Senate. Nobody is arguing, as Never Trumpers did, that they would refuse to vote for Sanders were he the nominee.

It was a big deal for many of the 2016 Never Trumpers who followed through on their threat and refrained from voting for Trump. The Democratic nominee was not only a liberal but one of the most corrupt politicians in the United States. Hillary Clinton had, for decades, been one of the most disliked figures among conservatives. Yet many of them still rose up and took a stand against Trump, even if it meant losing friends and influence, and opposing a candidate who was promising to appoint conservative judges and cut taxes
.
So to Klein, this is evidence that Democrats share Bernie’s dark socialistic plans for America, and are not troubled by his views unless they result in defeat. He’s half-right in that Democratic objections to Sanders are not generally based on any misperception that this mild-mannered and irenic man has authoritarian tendencies, or that he’d wreck the economy or the country as a whole. The idea that Sanders is the “Trump of the Left” is not one shared by Democrats, which is all the more reason that in a contest with the actual Trump, Democrats will support Bernie in a heartbeat.

I would hope that Never Trump Republicans were and are repulsed by the mogul’s deeply unprincipled nature; Sanders is principled almost to a fault. Trump is the consummate bully, forever demeaning his enemies as quasi-subhuman and the powerless as “losers.” Unless you think Bernie is cruel to the poor pitiful billionaires of America, he doesn’t have a bullying bone in his body. Trump is a pathological liar. Sanders isn’t always right, but he doesn’t have a long history of telling lies. Trump is an incorrigible sexist with a trail of sexual assault and abuse allegations against him as long as the many NDAs he’s forced on his accusers. The worst anyone can say of Sanders on this front is that he’s unknowingly employed sexual harassers, like virtually everyone else in this sinful nation. Trump constantly, and with malice and forethought, exacerbates racial tensions while refusing to condemn racists. Sanders is entirely innocent of prejudice aimed at any race or ethnicity.

Trump divides the country deliberately in order to protect the wealthy and powerful. To the extent Sanders is divisive, it’s on behalf of those who need help. Trump is bellicose and glories in killing and torturing people. Sanders is pacific and yearns not just for the unstable peace of a terrified world but for the constant deescalation of conflict into diplomacy.

Klein tries to argue that Bernie is as much a threat to Democratic norms as the 45th president, trotting out the usual business about the Soviet honeymoon, the friendliness toward Latin American Marxists, and his association with the Squad (whom Klein calls “the most bigoted figures on the left,” which if true is quite a testament to the virtues of the left). But in real and recent life Sanders has been a Senate institutionalist and a steady champion for more, not less, democracy at home and abroad — the exact reverse of Trump, who explicitly regards himself as beyond the law, has contempt for voting rights and popular majorities, and almost exclusively admires dictators among his presidential peers. Has Sanders ever dropped a hint that he’d use the power of government to suppress hostile media voices (with which he has had many of)? Trump issues threats to “fake media” almost daily.

About the worst thing I can say about Sanders is that there’s a fringe element of his support base — often known colloquially as Bernie Twitter — that engages in hateful and unethical political attacks on occasion. But Bernie does not encourage that behavior, in sharp contrast to Trump, who models it, praises it and directly encourages it in regular mass rallies with all the trappings of — yes, it’s unmistakable — 20th-century fascism. Much as I personally sometimes dislike the Bernie Bros, I’d far rather see them in proximity to power — alongside the many Sanders supporters who are as fair-minded as anyone you’d meet — than the venal gang surrounding Trump, who manages to inspire them to new lows every time he tweets.

Klein is correct in attributing Never Trump sentiment to matters not of ideology but of “his character, his fitness for office, his lies, his abrasive statements that at times crossed into sexism, and the way his rhetoric portrayed immigrants as disproportionately violent.” The idea that Bernie Sanders reflects any of those maleficent qualities takes false equivalence to whole new levels.

It’s the very lack of equivalence between these two men that makes it a no-brainer for Democrats who may disagree with Sanders on health care or on tax policy, on Israel or on trade, on financial regulation or on the defense budget, to support him strongly if he is the Democratic nominee against Trump. And if Never Trumpers use this false equivalence as an excuse to crawl back into the cramped and foul tent that the president has made of their party, then they deserve the punishment they will earn in defeat or dishonor.


0 Replies
 
 

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