Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 07:20 am
Flint Michigan doesn't have clean water, and we have crumbling infrastructure all over America.... but Ukraine got 400 million dollars worth of aid and Star Force is getting 738 billion. Two trillion wasted on Afghanistan war of lies.

Yes, worse stuff is already here.
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 08:00 am
Quote:
American Leftists Believed Corbyn’s Inevitable Victory Would Be Their Model

The British election results, like any election result, is the result of unique circumstances and multiple factors. It is also, however, a test of a widely articulated political theory that has important implications for American politics. That theory holds that Corbyn’s populist left-wing platform is both necessary and sufficient in order to defeat the rising nationalist right. Corbyn’s crushing defeat is a decisive refutation.

Many writers, not only on the left, detected parallels between the rise of Corbyn and the movement around Bernie Sanders. The latter is considerably more moderate and pragmatic than the former, and also not laden with the political baggage of Corbyn’s widely-derided openness to anti-Semitic allies. And yet many leftists have emphasized the similarities between the two, which are indeed evident. Both built youth-oriented movements led by cadres of radical activists who openly set out to destroy and remake their parties. Both lost in somewhat close fashion, Sanders in 2016 and Corbyn the next year. And fervent supporters of both men treated their narrow defeats as quasi-victories, proof of victory just around the corner.

Arguments of this sort tend to quickly devolve into straw-man attacks. So, in order to show that the view I’m describing is widespread, I am sharing lengthy excerpts from a half-dozen essays written by American leftists in recent years: [Chait here includes a half dozen such analyses from The Nation, Intercept, WP and others which you can read at link]

There are certainly some points that can be made on behalf of socialist politics. The great recession created among the young a much larger constituency for anti-capitalist politics than existed before; some “left-wing” policies, like tough financial regulation and generous pension benefits, do command broad public approval, while some “centrist” policies have proven unpopular.

Nonetheless, on the whole, the arguments extrapolating from the “success” enjoyed by Corbyn and Sanders suffered from delusional wishful thinking. Proceeding from the erroneous Marxist view that capitalism is growing more oppressive, and a working-class backlash is therefore inevitable, they glommed onto bits of data and ignored and large and growing array of evidence to the contrary.

In the U.K., this delusion created a bitter argument between the left and center-left. The former insisted on maintaining Corbyn as Labour leader, based on the idea not only that he could and would win, but in some cases that his Labour critics opposed him precisely because they feared he would. Their moralistic fervor made any sober political calculation impossible. As early as 2016, a writer for the progressive New Statesman was lamenting “The sheer intensity of [Corbyn’s support], combined with some of his supporters’ glassy-eyed denial of reality and desire to ‘purge’ the party unfaithful,” and compared it to “a cult or a religious movement.”

Corbyn’s victory became a matter of faith, and its adherents continued to tout wisps of evidence for it even in the face of dismal polling...

Whether a more moderate Labour leader would have defeated Johnson – who is highly unpopular, yet still far less unpopular than Corbyn – is unknowable. What is certain is that his delirious backers assumed his success, and built around it a self-serving theory from which they refused to deviate in the face of mounting indications of doom.
Jon Chait NYMag

Sharper readers will intuit why I've bolded one particular graph.


blatham
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 09:00 am
Quote:
David Frum
@davidfrum
By a margin of 9 points, British voters now think Brexit a mistake. How does an opposition party then lose to Mr. Brexit? By nominating somebody / something even more unacceptable


Hard to argue with this.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 09:29 am
@blatham,
Quote:
Sharper readers will intuit why I've bolded one particular graph.


Indeed.

Every silver lining surrounds a dark cloud.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  4  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 10:14 am
All this stupid infighting of democrats is so unnecessary and so good for the republicans. As Hillary rightly said, our agreements are less than our disagreements. What it boils down to is how we want our country to be led by republicans who want the very opposite of a progressive government or a democrats who wants a democrat progressive government, some want more and some want more moderate progressive agenda, but want the same. In the meantime, our infighting has the result of dividing and conquering and letting the republican win. At this point, I don't really care who wins the democrat primary, just that one of them does and I will support whoever it is as long as their blue. After we win, that is the time for the infighting to come in to play, when it is time to set the agenda. There is a season for everything as the proverbs said a long time ago.

As a reminder of what we are really up against, I left this on the Trump thread, but it needs repeating:

Trump administration proposes Social Security rule changes that could cut off thousands of disabled recipients

Now that the impeachment is basically over, and Trump is impeached and more than likely is to stay here, which we knew going in, it is time to get more focused on Trump more than ever.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 10:34 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
At some point, blatham may swoop in with nonsense about anti-intellectualism. I revere intellectualism, but not if it requires contempt for those who don't pass the test of pseudo-intellectuals.

Who can resist a formal invitation to intellectual swooping?

Me, that's who.



Seems to me fin is speaking as a true rightist elite.........
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 11:24 am
@BillW,
Quote:
Seems to me fin is speaking as a true rightist elite.........

That is as good as saying he is not. You have been right about nothing, I see no reason for you to start now.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 12:18 pm
Ben Norton

Verified account

@BenjaminNorton
12m12 minutes ago
More
Wow they're not wasting any time: the leader of Scotland immediately called for a new vote on independence from the United Kingdom.

Her party the Scottish National Party (SNP) just won 48 of the country's 59 seats.

Goodbye UK
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 12:30 pm
Zach Montellaro

Verified account

@ZachMontellaro
12m12 minutes ago
More
Both @BernieSanders & @ewarren said they're boycotting next week's debate bc they won't cross @UnitedHere11's picket line. The union represents food service workers on LMU's campus, who are in a contract dispute with Sodexo.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 12:49 pm
I hope this year, we don't take the black vote for granted and fear that is exactly the case, as Hillary did back in 2016. A good deal of the black voted for Hillary in the primary, but sat out in the general. That should concern us Democrats more than the white working poor whatever that is. Trump is as I we speak, working the black vote in Florida. We dismiss that as unlikely to our misfortune.

Just saying.

Well, I have had enough of politics for the day.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 02:07 pm
@BillW,
Quote:
Seems to me fin is speaking as a true rightist elite.........
He has an interesting take on "elites" and the masses manipulated or controlled or disadvantaged by those "elites".

This isn't by any account an unusual formulation. Indeed, in its basic form, it's a very commonplace understanding. Marxists hold it and think with it as do many in the pro-Sanders camp. Many Christian voices of a more radical sort like William Barr Bill Donohue or Pat Roberts or Paula White or Robert Jeffress etc see the world in such a manner. And of course so do those who come to believe that a Jewish cabal rules the world behind the scenes. The anti-Hollywood or anti-university folks likewise. Those of us who see corporate power as a fundamental and undeniable aspect of how politics actually happens can be included here. Anyone who has studied history grasps that human communities are frequently tempted to establish and maintain hierarchies of power where a few benefit greatly and well, **** everyone else.

It is not by any means a senseless formulation. But all the varying examples or instances I've just pointed to where passionate certainty marks the often opposing world views demonstrates how easy we can get it wrong.



0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 03:07 pm
@revelette3,
I feel pretty confident that trump won’t get any meaningful percentage of the black vote, but all they have to do is stay home to put him in office.

Wonder if they’re satisfied with the democrats.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 03:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The problem is not some sort of rebirth of early 20th Century fascism (although it may eventually lead to that) it is the perception of common everyday citizens that the elites running their governments (and their lives) not only don't respect their views and traditions but consider them, at best, boorishly ignorant and at worst, evil.

That perception has been promoted tirelessly by the right at least since the time of Fulton Lewis Jr. The fact that demagogues can so easily stoke envy, resentment, and division is nothing new. That some "common everyday citizens" buy this paranoid garbage and find common cause in hating the "evil elites" and disrespecting their views and accomplishments blunts the effect of the distinction you are trying to make.

Quote:
The primary difference and most concerning aspect of this shift is that the class that has moved from the right to the left expresses publically utter disdain for those they left behind and who have taken their place.

Why would that be any worse than the utter disdain shown publicly by the MAGA-hatted for those who left Middletown,USA and chose to pursue education in a cosmopolitan setting?

Quote:
It is astounding that the Western Left now, consistently, looks down its collective nose at the working class of the world

Why would this be any worse than the Western Right, which now consistently looks down its collective nose at the educated professional class of the world?

Quote:

First of all those on the right (unlike those on the left), rarely if ever, express contempt for everyday Americans who vote Democrat.

The average Democrat in 2019 sneers at Walmart Shoppers, Watta-Burger Eaters, virtually everyone living in the South, and Trump supporters, because they now see themselves as members of the elite: college-educated professionals who know so much more than a welder or farmer, and are, by far, morally superior to any Alabama or Texas cracker.


Nonsense. You're just projecting here. We're all victimized by Walmart (and Amazon) which have helped to destroy small towns and independent retailers. There are lots of Democrats who live in the South. Many welders and farmers are far more literate than you give them credit for. I may sneer at people who can't live without their daily latte but it has nothing to do with feelings of moral superiority.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 03:42 pm
Looks like the Dem debate will have to find a different location. All 7 candidates refuse to cross the picket line.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  5  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 03:52 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
I feel pretty confident that trump won't get any meaningful percentage of the black vote...


What quantities as 'meaningful'? In a close race, it doesn't take all that much to turn it into 'meaningful'. In certain circumstances and locations, it can quickly become the most 'meaningful' thing.

Did you learn nothing from the 2016 results?
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 04:19 pm
@Sturgis,
Truthfully, I haven’t looked at %s of black votes for trump, but Jesus Christ—what could he possibly get?? 1%??
Sturgis
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 04:24 pm
@Lash,
Trump had an 8% take in black votes in '16. Will it increase or decrease or hold the same? Another unknown.
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 04:25 pm
@Sturgis,
The more important issue is black voter turnout, not how many will go for Trump.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 04:29 pm
@Sturgis,
That is astonishing to me. Wtf black people are trump voters??
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  5  
Reply Fri 13 Dec, 2019 05:13 pm
It's stupid to just lump a bunch of voters together because they happen to have African ancestry and expect that all those people are going to vote the same way. It's demeaning. I'm surprised people get away with it. Racial stereotyping is so reactionary.
0 Replies
 
 

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