RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2019 03:24 pm
@Sturgis,
Simple, Bernie said let there be universal Healthcare, and their was universal Healthcare.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2019 04:20 pm
I have watched all of my seventy plus years how the military/industrial complex has been able to wear away the people's rights, through influencing politicians and organizations. They have thoroughly succeeded in upending most aspects of government for the nation by corrupting both political parties. Voices of reason generally get silenced one way or another. Bernie Sanders has somehow come through it intact and he has the answers. The problem is, people did not start listening to progressives before the damage was done. It's a long shot for Bernie to be able to right the ship of state, but nobody else with a chance of winning the presidency even has a plan. I believe that if a progressive White House does not come about, with enough support from the people to move us away from disaster in the 2020 election that the country will very shortly see movements such as in Hong Kong, or Yellow Vests or whatever. Both parties have brought us to this by tending to the business of the military/industrial complex and swindling the people out of their democracy.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 06:41 am
@edgarblythe,
I've seen the same stuff you have, for almost as long. But I noticed something else as well. Throughout the entire disheartening march of progress there's been the same bunch of people complaining about the unfairness of it all. The same bunch of people telling the same old tale about a new day coming, a veritable worker's paradise where everyone will be treated with respect. The same bunch of people mouthing the same stirring slogans about solidarity, justice, and peace. The same saccharine elevation of the poor and downtrodden, the same tiresome disdain for the wealthy and successful. The same old answers to the same old questions stuck in the same old frame viewed through the same old grid. Mighty speeches delivered with the same old sputtering indignance using the same old cliches of struggle and delivered with the same old Mosaic authority. The same aura of certainty and inevitability — and the same old disappointing reality when you wake up the next day. I honestly don't know why anyone thinks the story's going to change — our opposition to "the system" feeds off "the system" and is simply part of a dialectic within the system itself, part of the engine that keeps it all going, covering the earth with broken promises, fantasies of retribution, horrible x-mas music, and colorful micro-plastics. If you think you know the solution you're part of the problem.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 06:53 am
@hightor,
As opposed to you, who understands the problem and can explain it to unassailable perfection.
Which I guess is what people who are part of the solution do.

And it doesn’t read as sniffy or nihilistic at all.

Good job.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 07:13 am
@hightor,
As I think I've mentioned before, my dad was a union organizer. He'd grown up on the Canadian prairies during the 30s where unionism and other lefty notions were both common and ripening. We'd get into arguments (mild) about his take on the world versus my own. From this vantage point of the present, it looks like he had some stuff right and some other stuff not so much.

But one notion he held dear was that we, as a culture, were in the midst of a sort of battle between those who held wealth/power and the rest of us who, if we weren't ever vigilant, would be used as pawns or cannon fodder by the powerful. And I see no good reason to think that notion wrong.

But it does not follow from this notion that we will some day develop a political system or social ethos which erases this dynamic (an analogy here is how we will never be rid of bullies and those who seek to dominate others). The best we can expect are systems and institutions which ameliorate it. And we've had really quite substantial success in this. It ebbs and flows, of course, but child labor is mostly gone, the court systems of western countries do provide degrees of fairness and justice which once did not exist, etc.

But the "perfect" solution is never going to come about.

It is, for me and probably for everyone, just damned exhausting to keep at this fight. The present is very definitely such a time. But there's no other alternative than to keep at it. The goal has to be progress forward, not ideal achieved. If we can get millions more Americans covered by health insurance plans but yet leave some uninsured for now, this doesn't mean the fight was lost. I simply means that our victory was indeed a victory even if we must move again to make it even better - while grasping that we'll have a fight on our hands, again.

hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 08:05 am
@blatham,
Quote:
The goal has to be progress forward, not ideal achieved.

There you go. There we go. I agree.





0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 08:13 am
Increments is as much a bullshit excuse for failure as you could possibly invent.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 08:22 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Increments is as much a bullshit excuse for failure as you could possibly invent.


Do I have to repeat myself?

Quote:
Increments are all we're going to get — if we're lucky — because there's no way a radical top-to-bottom reorganization of our health care and health insurance system is going to be put into place. Won't make it through Congress, won't make it past the courts. (...) How long are you folks willing to give Sanders as he works to take on the largest capitalist economy in the world with the most conservative electorate and transform it into a democratic socialist state? That'd be quite an undertaking — assuming he could make it past the 2022 midterms. Hell, assuming he could even get elected in the first place.
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 09:03 am
@hightor,
It's not only congress he has to fight, but a good size of the public, including some democrats and independents and all the health industry and pharmacies. Obama had the same problem and apparently solved it by including the insurance companies, the health industry and pharmacies into the exchanges. He still fought the public, the congress and most of the courts and came out the loser on all three and had it sabotaged by conservative states and now by executive orders from Trump.

I am not saying it can't be done, it just can't be done smoothly and quickly enough and in the meantime, what happens to the health insurance we have now and what if his plans flop? After all, Obamacare did insure more people than what was in place before it and although it has been gutted, it is still there and without it a lot of people will lose their insurance, such as myself. It is the total scrapping Obamacare that scares me to death.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 09:55 am
I like Sen. Warren. I like Sen. Sanders. That doesn't mean that I think they have a winning message.

The Danger of Elizabeth Warren

Even if she wins the presidency — hardly a sure bet — she may jeopardize Democrats in the House and the Senate.

Quote:
Under pressure, Elizabeth Warren has retreated from the idea of immediate implementation of Medicare for All, but she remains committed to the progressive core of her candidacy.

As she put it in a speech to Iowa Democrats on Nov. 1:

If we’re going to meet the challenges of our time, we need big ideas. Big ideas to inspire people and get them out to caucus and get them out to vote. Big ideas to be the lifeblood of our party and show the world who and what Democrats will fight for.

In rhetoric that drew enthusiastic applause from her supporters at the Liberty and Justice Dinner in Des Moines, Warren declared that the nation is at

a time of crisis, and media pundits, Washington insiders, even some people in our own party don’t want to admit it. They think that running some vague campaign that nibbles around the edges is somehow safe.

Democrats will win, she continued,

when we offer solutions big enough to touch the problems that are in people’s lives. Fear and complacency does not win elections; hope and courage wins elections.

There is evidence, however, that Warren’s strategy could generate a backlash leading to the re-election of Donald Trump.

Andrew Hall and Daniel Thompson, political scientists at Stanford, examined “the link between the ideology of congressional candidates and the turnout of their parties’ bases in US House races, 2006—2014” in their 2018 paper “Who Punishes Extremist Nominees? Candidate Ideology and Turning Out the Base in US Elections.”

In contrast to moderate candidates, Hall and Thompson found:

Extremist candidates do worse, because, contrary to rhetoric, they fail to galvanize their own base and instead encourage the opposing party’s base to turn out more, on average.

In other words, polarizing candidates diminish turnout in their own party while boosting turnout among opposing partisans.

Alan Abramowitz, a political scientist at Emory, analyzed the pattern of Democratic victories in 2018 House races and found that “those who supported Medicare for All performed worse than those who did not, even when controlling for other factors.”

In an article he published last week, “Medicare for All a Vote Loser in 2018 U.S. House Elections,” Abramowitz concluded:

These findings are not encouraging to supporters of Medicare for All. They indicate that candidates in competitive races who take positions to the left of the median voter could get punished at the polls. Democratic presidential candidates would do well to take heed of these results.

The analyses by Hall, Thompson and Abramowitz do not preclude the possibility that Warren could beat Trump in 2020. Whoever the Democratic nominee is will be able to capitalize on widespread hostility to Trump, a motivated Democratic electorate and the party’s continuing gains in formerly Republican suburbs across the nation.

(...)

there's much more on the link; worth reading

nyt/edsall

It's pretty telling that universal healthcare is considered to be an "extremist" position in the USA.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 11:19 am
Josie Votes for a #GreenNewDeal 🌹❤️
@JosieIsTired
·
15m
My inner Nostradamus tells me that at tonight's #DemDebate we'll see a lot of fawning & softball questions to Liz & Pete, & a few conservative-premised questions for Bernie, interspersed with long periods of #BernieBlackout, & something incoherent from Joe.

What do YOU predict?
Ԍεοϝϝ 🌹
@SpittingBack
Replying to
@JosieIsTired
They'll try to provoke a Bernie/Warren spat over her M4A rollout/pay-for plans. They won't take the bait, moderators will let Warren slide & she'll escape unscathed. If they don't grill Pete re SC black endorsements stunt - not just Kenya pic - they should be booed off the air.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 02:25 pm
Can't for the life of me understand his happiness
Quote:
Putin pleased election interference accusations have shifted to Ukraine
At an economic forum in Moscow on Wednesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin expressed pleasure that talk of interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election has shifted away from Russia and to Ukraine during these impeachment hearings.

“Thank God,” he said, speaking to an audience at the “Russia Calling!” investment event. “No one is accusing us of interfering in the United States elections anymore. Now they’re accusing Ukraine. We’ll let them deal with that themselves.”
WP
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 03:31 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
If they don't grill Pete re SC black endorsements stunt


Guess I need to google.

I wondered when progressives were going to start going after Buttigieg. Have my answer. Googled it. Not sure if the below is what you are referring to.

Quote:
The photo of a black woman smiling at a young black boy had been splashed for weeks across a web page detailing South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg's plan to combat racial inequality, which he billed as a "comprehensive investment in the empowerment of black America."

But when the woman in the photo learned that her likeness was displayed on the Democratic presidential candidate's campaign website, she was confused, the Intercept's Ryan Grim reported Sunday. The woman isn't African American and she's never heard of the Douglass Plan - she is from Kenya, where the picture was originally taken.

"[W]hat's the meaning of the message accompanied by the photo?" the woman asked Grim. "Have no idea of what's happening..."

The photo mix-up is just the latest controversy to erupt around the Douglass Plan since it was rolled out in July as part of Buttigieg's effort to make inroads with black voters. While recent polling has shown Buttigieg surging toward the front of the crowded Democratic presidential field in Iowa, the candidate has struggled to draw support from African Americans.


Some critics pointed to the photo as further proof of that disconnect.

"This is not ok or necessary," tweeted Rep. Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., a Somali-born refugee.

By late Sunday, Buttigieg's campaign confirmed to The Washington Post that the photo of the Kenyan woman was no longer on the website. A contracting firm had chosen the stock image while building the site without knowing that it was taken in Africa, according to the campaign.

The photo was one of several featuring people of color that ran on the page touting the Douglass Plan. Named after abolitionist and activist Frederick Douglass, the plan aims to "dismantle racist structures and systems" in the United States by proposing changes to the country's health, education and criminal justice systems, The Post reported in July.

Last month, the campaign announced that more than 400 people in South Carolina, where the latest Monmouth Poll had Buttigieg at 1 percent among black voters, endorsed the plan. The news was promoted in an Oct. 24 op-ed signed by the plan's supporters and three black South Carolina Democrats: Columbia City Council member Tameika Isaac Devine, state Rep. Ivory Thigpen, and the state party's Black Caucus chair Johnnie Cordero.

"There is one presidential candidate who has proven to have intentional policies designed to make a difference in the Black experience, and that's Pete Buttigieg," according to the op-ed, which ran in HBCU Times, a publication dedicated to news about historically black colleges and universities. "We are over 400 South Carolinians, including business owners, pastors, community leaders, and students. Together, we endorse his Douglass Plan for Black America, the most comprehensive roadmap for tackling systemic racism offered by a 2020 presidential candidate."

But questions soon emerged about the nature of support Buttigieg had found for the plan. The Washington Post reported on Nov. 11 that "Buttigieg persuaded hundreds of prominent black South Carolinians to sign onto the plan even if they are not supporting his candidacy."

"His campaign then trumpeted these signatures in a way that forced figures such as Devine, for one, to clarify that she was not endorsing Buttigieg," The Post's Cleve R. Wootson Jr. and Amy B Wang wrote.

On Friday, Devine told the Intercept that the campaign had been "intentionally vague" about the way it had presented her endorsement, which led some to believe that she was endorsing Buttigieg as a candidate and not just the Douglass Plan. The council member reiterated her support for the plan in a tweet over the weekend,

Cordero and Thigpen, however, told the Intercept they did not expect their names to appear on the op-ed.

"I never endorsed that plan," Cordero said. "I don't know how my name got on there."

Thigpen, who has endorsed Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., for president, said the way the campaign rolled out its October announcement "was not an accurate representation of where I stand."

Cordero's name was taken off the op-ed before the Intercept's story published, according to Buttigieg's campaign. Thigpen remains as one of the named supporters.

People who expressed interest in backing the plan had the option to opt out of having their names attached to the op-ed if they responded in time to an email sent by the campaign, the Intercept reported. After reviewing the names, the publication found that at least 42 percent of the list was made up of white voters.

In a statement to The Post on Sunday, a spokesman for the campaign said, "We've been clear that not every supporter of the plan is Black, and have never claimed otherwise in any public communication." The statement also pushed back against allegations that the campaign "gave the impression publicly that these people were endorsing Pete."

"We asked a number of Black South Carolinians, as well as South Carolinians from many backgrounds, to support the Douglass Plan, and we are proud and grateful that hundreds agreed to do so," the statement said, noting that people were given multiple chances to review the op-ed and those who asked had their names taken off.

This weekend, conversation shifted to the photo, which Grim pointed out Friday had been taken in Kenya. In a Sunday tweet, he explained that the Kenyan woman contaced him, "very confused" about why her picture was suddenly linked to an American presidential candidate. Grim added that the woman did agree to be photographed, but "didn't intend to pose for a stock photo."

By early Monday, Grim's tweet had garnered hundreds of responses.
One person accused Buttigieg's campaign of "pure laziness."

"Sounds like a man with his finger on the pulse of the black community," another tweeted.


https://www.thetelegraph.com/news/article/Stock-image-used-to-promote-Buttigieg-s-plan-for-14842941.php

Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 05:13 pm
In a nauseating interview on Pod Save America, Elizabeth Warren endorsed suffocating US sanctions on Venezuela, backing Trump’s strategy to stop its “ability to have an economy” while parroting neocon regime-change myths.

She then whitewashed the far-right military coup in Bolivia.

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/20/elizabeth-warren-venezuela-sanctions-bolivia-coup/?fbclid=IwAR1DPnPWJacV8wNKw347rag7Tba16JRPYXpuX7xTKkXPdJ4khh4DzWzj7JM
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 05:16 pm
@revelette3,
I'm sure that in retrospect, his PR boys/girls recognize they did something dumb. But if we were to refuse to consider for office every politician who used stock photos to represent a policy or plan or location, we'd have very few left.

A hit GW Bush's administration took was when they put up photos representing themselves but used a ratio of african americans that had no relationship to who was actually in their administration, the criticisms had heft and validity for the obvious reasons.

This case is different. But it was very dumb.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 08:34 pm
Jimmy Dore
@jimmy_dore
·
6m
am I wrong or is Warren getting more speaking time than everyone else combined?
revelette3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 10:52 pm
@edgarblythe,
I thought so too.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 10:57 pm
1. I didn't actually see the debate tonight.

2. Anyone who saw the debate, how did Joe Biden do tonight in the debate?
BillW
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2019 11:03 pm
@Real Music,
Same as usual, pretty good early, falling off later on. You know, past his bedtime!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2019 04:02 am
@Brand X,
Brand X wrote:
In a nauseating interview on Pod Save America, Elizabeth Warren endorsed suffocating US sanctions on Venezuela, backing Trump's strategy to stop its "ability to have an economy" while parroting neocon regime-change myths.

The only people who are stopping Venezuela from having an economy are the leftists who run Venezuela.

That's what leftists do whenever they are in charge of a place. They stop it from having an economy.


Brand X wrote:
She then whitewashed the far-right military coup in Bolivia.

I've heard that the Bolivian army is gunning down leftists. And also that they are welcoming foreign investors to start mining lithium in Bolivia.

It sounds like Bolivia is going to have a decent economy soon. I'm happy for their good fortune.
0 Replies
 
 

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