InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 02:22 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:

The Jewish people are entitled to have their own homeland!

Not at the expense of another people!
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:30 pm
@Sturgis,
You might educate yourself. Many peoples have been in the middle east longer than the Jews. So using that as a criteria Israel should move somewhere else and give the true inhalants the state of Israel. Yard I know the bible says the Jews were the first. But that so called history was written by Jewish historians. Biased anyone.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:43 pm
@RABEL222,
Wrong again. History and archaeology are written by historians and archaeologists. And history and archaeology are very clear that the ancestors of the Israeli Jews were the first inhabitants of the West Bank area.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:44 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Not at the expense of another people!

The two-state solution would not harm the Palestinians. They would have their own state based on 1967 borders.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:46 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
It is well known by historians and archaeologists that the first Zionists to Palestine were indigenous to Europe.

That is incorrect. Archaeologists and historians are very clear on the fact that the ancestors of the Israeli Jews were the original inhabitants of the West Bank area.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:47 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
A two state solution is incompatible with the Palestinians' Right of Return.

The Palestinians have a choice:

a) they can negotiate a two-state solution without a right of return

b) they can take what they can from Israel through force of arms

If the Palestinians choose "b" that means it is also OK for Israel to take what they can from the Palestinians through force of arms.


InfraBlue wrote:
The Zionists need to dismantle their ethnocentrically oppressive state and allow a truly democratic, egalitarian and pluralistic state to take its place.

No they don't. The world only asks that Israel agree to peacefully negotiate a two-state solution.

Israel has fulfilled that obligation. If the Palestinians choose to fight instead of negotiate, then Israel has every right to fight and seize land as well.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:49 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
You're also a champion for genocide,

That was a spontaneous expression of outrage over the atrocity that Italy was then committing. I was hardly championing it.

I've since calmed down and now merely advocate that the US military massacre Italy's judiciary.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:53 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Not at the expense of another people!

The two-state solution would not harm the Palestinians. They would have their own state based on 1967 borders.


A two state solution harms the Palestinians in that it denies them their Right of Return.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:56 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
It is well known by historians and archaeologists that the first Zionists to Palestine were indigenous to Europe.

That is incorrect. Archaeologists and historians are very clear on the fact that the ancestors of the Israeli Jews were the original inhabitants of the West Bank area.

Wrong. Archaeologists and historians are very clear on the fact that the ancestors of the Israeli Jews were from the areas where they originated, mostly Europe. Latter Israeli Jews originated in areas such as Iraq, Iran and North Africa.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:58 pm
@oralloy,
Israel will never see the peace that it claims to seek by denying the Palestinians their Right of Return.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 03:59 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You're also a champion for genocide,

That was a spontaneous expression of outrage over the atrocity that Italy was then committing. I was hardly championing it.

I've since calmed down and now merely advocate that the US military massacre Italy's judiciary.

So then, you're a champion for massacres, so what you find in regard to Israel doesn't carry much weight.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:01 pm
@InfraBlue,
No matter what excuse you use to deny facts, those facts are not going to go away.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:02 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Israel will never see the peace that it claims to seek by denying the Palestinians their Right of Return.

No peace means that Israel is under no obligation to give up any land, and is free to keep whatever land they can seize through force of arms.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:03 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
A two state solution harms the Palestinians in that it denies them their Right of Return.

That wouldn't harm the Palestinians. They would be able to live in their new Palestinian state.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:03 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Israel will never see the peace that it claims to seek by denying the Palestinians their Right of Return.

No peace means that Israel is under no obligation to give up any land, and is free to keep whatever land they can seize through force of arms.

This scenario would merely perpetuate the lack of peace Israel claims it desires.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:04 pm
@InfraBlue,
The lack of peace would be a shame, but it's not all bad. At least Israel would be able to keep all of the land.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:07 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Wrong. Archaeologists and historians are very clear on the fact that the ancestors of the Israeli Jews were from the areas where they originated, mostly Europe. Latter Israeli Jews originated in areas such as Iraq, Iran and North Africa.

That is incorrect. Archeologists and historians have conclusively established that the Canaanites were the original inhabitants, and have conclusively established that the Israelites were directly descended from the native Canaanites.

The Israeli Jews of today are descended from the native Israelites.
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:10 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I think they comprehend it. They just don't agree with it. There are simply too many cases of ethnic groups being displaced over time to allow exiled people to simply return and reclaim the land as their own. There's a statute of limitations to going back where you came from.

No one bought that argument when former Nazis tried it with their looted artwork. I'm not sure why the neonazis of today would think the argument would work any better.


hightor wrote:
over the years, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, Israel was perceived as a colonial power which subjugated its native population. Whatever the complexity of the background story, many people simply saw invading white Europeans oppressing the Palestinians.

Antisemitism has always been based in ignorance. The neonazis of today are not unique in their ignorance.

I can't think of any cases where criticism of Israel has ever been fair or legitimate. I acknowledge though that it is hypothetically possible.


hightor wrote:
As the government of Israel moved steadily to the right -- which was obviously a natural reaction to perceived hostility -- it became easier and easier for progressives to criticize the country. The West's growing dependence on Mideast oil also affected the equation. The emergence of Jewish neo-conservatives in the US further cemented the idea in the mind of many leftists that Jews were shunning progressive values and that Israel, once seen as secular and liberal, was turning into some sort of oppressive religious state. Jumping ahead to the present we see conservative Republicans linked arm-in-arm with the Likudniks and Israel the darling of the religious right -- who just can't wait for Armageddon.

It's all very sad. But human history doesn't play out strictly in accord with revealed Scripture. Personally I don't think the hardcore Jewish right (like the hardcore Republicans here) represents the sentiments of the majority of Israeli Jews but (like the Republicans here) it's figured out how to be very effective at the ballot box. I don't know how it will end.

I suspect that it will end with the Palestinians in the West Bank being forcibly removed to the Gaza Strip, and the Gaza Strip will become the Palestinian state. It will however remain under perpetual blockade in order to prevent Palestinians from murdering people.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:14 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

No matter what excuse you use to deny facts, those facts are not going to go away.

The only fact here is the fact that you're merely voicing your opinion.
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Jul, 2019 04:15 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
A two state solution harms the Palestinians in that it denies them their Right of Return.

That wouldn't harm the Palestinians. They would be able to live in their new Palestinian state.

It's harmful to the Palestinians to deny them their Right of Return.
 

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