snood
 
  5  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2019 04:58 pm
@Real Music,
Oh, but we can’t possibly believe that Lash is defending the terrible racist marchers, their hateful words or their assaults or the murder they committed. See, it’s way more likely she’s doing something that only the very evolved can appreciate. That’s probably it. She’s defending a very deeply and dearly held principle. And that is the principle of free and unfettered expression. She’s holding the line against those of us here on A2K who are being oppressive and who seek to dictate to her what she can think and say. I tell you, it’s heroic. Very befitting of a bold modern educator like her.


Well, it’s that, or she is just defending those alt right hate mongers like Donald Trump and the rest of the scumbag right wing does because they can’t help themselves.

But it’s probably that principled heroic thing.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2019 06:24 pm
Bernie Sanders vs the Democrat Establishment: What the Battle is Really About

Excerpt:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/28/bernie-sanders-v-the-democratic-establishment-what-the-battle-is-really-about

In a crowded Democratic presidential primary field, there is one candidate who has drawn sustained opposition from party elites: Vermont’s Senator Bernie Sanders. The New York Times reports that major donors, party operatives, senior lawmakers and rival candidate and South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg have been attending private meetings where they discuss, among other things, how to prevent a Sanders nomination.

One explanation for why a party would try to stop the ascendancy of a certain candidate is electability. But that explanation is weak: Sanders has maintained high national favorability ratings, and is outperforming the incumbent Republican, Donald Trump, in polling.

Another explanation would be that the dispute is interpersonal in nature. A dramatic New York Times anecdote noted that Sanders’s campaign manager, Faiz Shakir, was once punched or shoved, depending on whose story you believe, by the then Hillary Clinton aide Neera Tanden during a dispute in 2008. Tanden is a known longtime critic of Sanders and the president of the Center for American Progress (Cap), a liberal thinktank that came under fire from Sanders when its weblog ThinkProgress produced a video drawing attention to his wealth.

But is this just about residual bad blood between Clinton and Sanders factions?

I don’t think so. Between 2009 and 2012, I worked for both Shakir and Tanden at the Center for American Progress. Shakir was the editor-in-chief of ThinkProgress at the time and we both worked under Tanden.

Shakir and Tanden frequently clashed during my time there, but not a single one of their disputes was about anything personal. Instead, they argued about the role of money in politics.

Although Cap is a thinktank that produces policy papers – many of which are commendable – it is also serves as an important political unit allied to the Democratic party. It promotes its policy stances to Democratic party politicians and works to get its staff hired into Democratic administrations. But it does so in a climate where big donors – banks, healthcare firms and foreign governments make up its donor rolls – frequently pressured it to adopt certain stances.

As one example, stories I reported for the Intercept showed that the UAE paid Cap $2.5m as its senior staff helped them lobby the Trump administration and influence the wider DC policy community.

During my time at the thinktank, Shakir repeatedly and vigorously pushed back at attempts by Cap’s donors to influence ThinkProgress’s content, while Tanden argued that this was simply the cost of doing business in Washington. It is hardly any surprise that she boasted about recruiting a pro-Israel board member and donor, after her invitation to the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to address her thinktank. In Tanden’s mind, a thinktank like Cap can only maintain its influence through strong elite fundraising, so any cost in reputation it suffered by inviting Netanyahu was offset by the money.

The Shakir-Tanden debate about money in politics at Cap is also the larger debate Sanders is sparking in the Democratic party. Joe Biden opened his presidential bid by allowing a Comcast executive to host a fundraiser for him at his home in Pennsylvania. Sanders, on the other hand, has written off such fundraisers and is insisting on relying on small donor funders, not corporate executives or lobbyists.

It may sound like I am portraying Tanden, Biden and the Democratic establishment as corrupt and immoral – willing to sell policy and political communications to the highest bidder with no regard for the public interest.

But social psychology research tells us that people who have different ideas about politics than us are not generally bad people – they’re mostly good people with different convictions. In the eyes of the Democratic establishment, courting big dollars is the only way to stay politically competitive – and besides, corporations and wealthy individuals are major stakeholders in society, so why shouldn’t they get a major say over policy?

That’s a coherent worldview, and it’s one that the majority of Democratic and Republican powerbrokers hold. But increasingly, American voters are turning against what they see as a corrupting influence of money in our politics. Sanders believes that he can build a sort of politics where small donors and ordinary people drive political discussion rather than the large donors Cap and Biden are courting.

Establishment voices will probably mock Sanders’ view as naive or overly idealistic. But if you think about what Sanders is arguing, perhaps he is the realist.

In 10 years of reporting about politics, almost every politician has told me their donors do not influence their behavior. If this were true, they would be the only individuals on planet Earth who are not tempted by money.

What Sanders is arguing is the opposite – if he started doing big-ticket fundraisers with corporate executive and lobbyists, he would be influenced by their money. He is admitting his human flaws, and taking corrective action to make up for them.

If anything, the establishment’s argument is the idealistic one, and Sanders’ is the pragmatic one.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  3  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2019 08:03 pm
Inside the Russian effort to target Sanders supporters — and help elect Trump.

Published April 12, 2019
Quote:
After Bernie Sanders lost his primary campaign for president against Hillary Clinton in 2016, a Twitter account called Red Louisiana News reached out to his supporters to help sway the general election. “Conscious Bernie Sanders supporters already moving towards the best candidate Trump! #Feel the Bern #Vote Trump 2016,” the account tweeted.

The tweet was not actually from Louisiana, according to an analysis by Clemson University researchers. Instead, it was one of thousands of accounts identified as based in Russia, part of a cloaked effort to persuade supporters of the Vermont senator to elect Trump. “Bernie Sanders says his message resonates with Republicans,” said another Russian tweet.

While much attention has focused on the question of whether the Trump campaign encouraged or conspired with Russia, the effort to target Sanders supporters has been a lesser-noted part of the story. Special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, in a case filed last year against 13 Russians accused of interfering in the U.S. presidential campaign, said workers at a St. Petersburg facility called the Internet Research Agency were instructed to write social media posts in opposition to Clinton but “to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.”

That strategy could receive new attention with the release of Mueller’s report, expected within days.

Sanders told Vermont Public Radio last year that one of his campaign workers figured out what was going on, alerted the Clinton campaign and told them, “I think these guys are Russians.” But Sanders said he never knew, and he later backed off his suggestion that his staff did. A spokesman referred questions to 2016 campaign manager Jeff Weaver, who said in an interview that Sanders “misspoke a little bit and conflated a few of the facts. ... He did not know, I did not know, none of us knew” that Russia was behind the efforts.

Only recently, with the latest analysis of Twitter data, has the extent of the Russian disinformation campaign been documented on that social media platform.

A pair of Clemson University researchers, at the request of The Washington Post, examined English-language tweets identified as coming from Russia, many of which were designed to influence the election. It is impossible to say how many were targeted at Sanders supporters because many don’t include his name. Some 9,000 of the Russian tweets used the word “Bernie,” which were “liked” 59,281 times and retweeted 61,804 times.

But that was only one element of the Russian effort to target Sanders supporters, the researchers said. Many thousands of other tweets, with no direct reference to Sanders, were also designed to appeal to his backers, urging them to do anything but vote for Clinton in the general election.

“I think there is no question that Sanders was central to their strategy. He was clearly used as a mechanism to decrease voter turnout for Hillary Clinton,” said one of the Clemson researchers, Darren Linvill, associate professor of communications. The tweets examined in the new analysis “give us a much clearer understanding of the tactics they were using. It was certainly a higher volume than people thought.”

The Russian social-media strategy underscores a challenge that Sanders faces as he once again seeks the Democratic presidential nomination, this time in a crowded field. Many Sanders supporters believe he was treated unfairly by the Democratic Party and Clinton, a point the Russians sought to capitalize on as they worked to undermine Clinton in the November election.

Although Sanders later denounced the Kremlin’s efforts and campaigned for Clinton, some Democrats believe he could have done more to smooth over tensions and encourage his supporters to support his onetime opponent. A former senior Clinton campaign official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to avoid publicly criticizing Sanders ahead of the 2020 primaries, said there remains bitterness over the way Sanders repeatedly said the system was tilted against him.

Sanders said in May 2016 that party rules enabling Clinton to collect “superdelegates” did not meet the definition of “rigged,” but he called it a “dumb process which certainly has disadvantaged our campaign.”

The effort to promote Sanders as a way to influence the U.S. election began shortly after he declared his candidacy in spring 2015, according to Mueller’s indictment of the Russians. Russia’s aim was to defeat or weaken Clinton, who had angered Russian President Vladimir Putin when she had been secretary of state.

One reason that Sanders was on Russia’s radar has been little noted: he, like Trump, opposed trade deals such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Putin had been critical of the TPP, saying it was secretive and “hardly facilitates sustainable development of Asia Pacific.”

During the primaries, Sanders gave at least three interviews to a Russia-controlled television network, RT, in which his trade stance was highlighted. The network in February 2016 criticized MSNBC for breaking away from Sanders after he said he was “helping to lead the opposition to the Trans-Pacific Partnership.” The network posted a story headlined, “Bernie Sanders 'censored' by MSNBC while criticizing trade deal.”

Around the same time that Sanders was featured on RT, Russian employees at the Internet Research Agency were given a document explaining how to influence the U.S. election. The workers were told to “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary and the rest (except Sanders and Trump — we support them),” according to Mueller’s indictment of the Russians.

The Twitter database shows the impact. The tweets sent from Russia, cloaked to look as though they came from Americans, included: “Bernie Sanders looks to black voters to boost his underdog campaign”; “Hillary Clinton’s summer of drama creates openings for Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden”; and “I’m for Bernie all the way!”

Then, in July 2016, WikiLeaks released emails from the Democratic National Committee that suggested the party machinery was tilted against Sanders. The DNC computers were later revealed to have been hacked by Russia. The hack prompted Trump to stoke the divide among Democrats. “Leaked e-mails of DNC show plans to destroy Bernie Sanders,” Trump tweeted July 23, 2016. “. . . On-line from Wikileakes [sic], really vicious. RIGGED!”

Russian trolls significantly increased their effort to persuade Sanders supporters to oppose Clinton in the general election. One of their methods was to try to convince African Americans that they couldn’t trust her.

“#BlackMenForBernie Leader Switches to Trump! I will Never Vote for Hillary,Welcome aboard the Trump Train,” said a tweet from an account that was said to come from Texas and was identified as “Southern. Conservative Pro God. Anti Racism.” The account, actually operated by a Russian, had 72,121 followers. The message was liked 260 times and retweeted 295 times, according to the Clemson database.

Linvill, the Clemson researcher, said Sanders was seen as “just a tool” to the Russians. “He is a wedge to drive into the Democratic Party,” resulting in lower turnout for Clinton, he said. The tweets suggested either voting for Trump or a third-party candidate such as Green Party nominee Jill Stein, or writing in Sanders’s name.

While it is impossible to show a direct correlation between a Russian-based tweet and someone’s vote in the United States, a post-election survey conducted for Ohio State University documented how false stories spread on social media may have caused a decline in turnout for Clinton. Only 77 percent of those surveyed who had voted for Barack Obama in 2012 supported Clinton in 2016; 10 percent backed Trump, 4 percent voted for third-party candidates, and 8 percent did not vote, according to the YouGov survey.

In an effort to demonstrate how inaccurate information makes its way into the mainstream, the survey asked respondents about three demonstrably false articles that had been widely distributed. A quarter of respondents believed the false story that Clinton was in “very poor health,” 10 percent believed that Trump had been endorsed by the Pope, and 35 percent (including 20 percent of Obama supporters) believed that Clinton had approved weapons sales to “Islamic jihadists, including ISIS.”

The Ohio State team concluded in a soon-to-be published final version of its report that “belief in these fake news stories is very strongly linked to defection from the Democratic ticket by 2012 Obama voters.” Obama voters who recognized all three stories as false voted for Clinton at a rate of 89 percent, while 61 percent who believed one of the stories was false voted for her, and 17 percent of those who believed two of the false stories supported Clinton.

Yoel Roth, Twitter’s head of site integrity, said Twitter had studied what happened during the presidential election and will apply those lessons as the 2020 campaign unfolds.

“Protecting the integrity of public conversation around elections is core to Twitter's mission,” Roth said in a statement to The Post. “Since 2016, we've launched new policies, significantly scaled our enforcement against malicious automation, built strong partnerships within the industry and with government entities, and opened the largest public archive of potential information operations online, including thousands of Russian-linked accounts we have removed.”

Sanders told Vermont Public Radio last year that the Russians “were playing a really disgusting role because they don’t believe in anything. And all they want to do is sow division in this country, bring people against each other. So what they were saying is — in so many words — is Bernie Sanders is not going to win, so if you are a Bernie Sanders supporter, let me tell you, Hillary Clinton is a criminal, a murderer, a terrible person . . . crazy, all of these disgusting things.”

Clinton spokesman Nick Merrill said “the Russians will strike again.” As a result, he said, it is imperative for “everyone else, especially Democratic candidates, to work together and support each other to defend against these threats.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/inside-the-russian-effort-to-target-sanders-supporters-%e2%80%94-and-help-elect-trump/ar-BBVRUxa
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Sun 28 Apr, 2019 10:48 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

Oh, but we can’t possibly believe that Lash is defending the terrible racist marchers, their hateful words or their assaults or the murder they committed. See, it’s way more likely she’s doing something that only the very evolved can appreciate. That’s probably it. She’s defending a very deeply and dearly held principle. And that is the principle of free and unfettered expression. She’s holding the line against those of us here on A2K who are being oppressive and who seek to dictate to her what she can think and say. I tell you, it’s heroic. Very befitting of a bold modern educator like her.


Well, it’s that, or she is just defending those alt right hate mongers like Donald Trump and the rest of the scumbag right wing does because they can’t help themselves.

But it’s probably that principled heroic thing.



As the philosopher Jon Lovett would say "Yeaah, that's the ticket"
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 03:00 am
Sanders Statement on Charlottesville Demonstration
Saturday, August 12, 2017

BURLINGTON, Vt., Aug. 12 – U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) issued the following statement on the white nationalist demonstration in Charlottesville, Virginia:

"The white nationalist demonstration in Charlottesville, Virginia, is a reprehensible display of racism and hatred that has no place in our society. I am disgusted by the news, and my thoughts are with those in the Charlottesville community and around the country who have been targeted. While this incident is alarming, it is not surprising. Hate crimes and shows of hostility toward minorities have recently been surging. Now more than ever we must stand together against those who threaten our brothers and sisters."

Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 04:42 am
@Olivier5,
Was he talking about Heather Heyer? Or the people marching around with swastikas? People who went to demonstrate against the removal of statues, and then looked around and saw they were in the middle of something they didn’t intend? Certainly not every soul there.

He was talking about the ones committing the behavior that he chaaracterized as the ‘white nationalist demonstration’. I don’t know who you might find to argue that point.

Of course and you and the self-appointed authoritarian herd know, that was never being argued by me. You just like to pretend, so you can have another self-righteous internet war, trying to control others’ speech.

Find something useful to do and mind your own speech.

Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 04:45 am
@Lash,
I know who Sanders was talking about: the disgusting neonazis rallying at Charlottesville. Now, who the **** are YOU talking about?
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 05:04 am
@Lash,
Of course, there is control of "free speech." You can't yell FIRE in a crowded theatre. It's inciting panic and it's against the law.

There's other morally wrong things to say to people. Singling out a particular race to degrade them is one. Calling a black person the n word is one. Calling a woman a whore is one. Try it and see whether or not it incites anger.

Your argument that the white nationalists were there just to protest the taking down of a statute is not the issue. The issue was to incite anger and to push an agenda that's reprehensible and morally wrong. Protesting the removal of a statue is one thing, but carrying hate flags and shouting extremely offensive slogans are another. Curtailing some "free speech"rights of some for the benefit of others has its place.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 07:16 am
@neptuneblue,
neptuneblue wrote:
There's other morally wrong things to say to people. Singling out a particular race to degrade them is one. Calling a black person the n word is one. Calling a woman a whore is one. Try it and see whether or not it incites anger.
The attempt to discredit people by giving them diseases, disorders or the like, or to attribute their political commitment to existing diagnoses, is very old, too, but extremely en vogue - "free speech".
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 07:27 am
@Lash,
Quote:
Or the people marching around with swastikas? People who went to demonstrate against the removal of statues, and then looked around and saw they were in the middle of something they didn’t intend? Certainly not every soul there.


If you attend a rally held by white nationalist you can't be surprised to suddenly find yourself surrounded by people wearing swastikas. Lie down with dogs get up with fleas.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 07:40 am
@revelette1,
Seems, Lash would be surprised.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 07:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yeah, Lash went to Charlottesville hoping to meet up with fellow sculpture aficionados...
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 04:10 pm
@neptuneblue,
That was most definitely not my argument—but I don’t confuse any of you with people who are making any attempt to be accurate.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 04:40 pm
@Lash,
You’re the only one here confused or promulgating confusion. No one else is suggesting that some of the people who marched in Charlottesville were simply protesting the removal of a statue.

InfraBlue
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 04:44 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Was he talking about Heather Heyer? Or the people marching around with swastikas? People who went to demonstrate against the removal of statues, and then looked around and saw they were in the middle of something they didn’t intend? Certainly not every soul there.

He was talking about the ones committing the behavior that he chaaracterized as the ‘white nationalist demonstration’. I don’t know who you might find to argue that point.

Of course and you and the self-appointed authoritarian herd know, that was never being argued by me. You just like to pretend, so you can have another self-righteous internet war, trying to control others’ speech.

Find something useful to do and mind your own speech.


The "Lost Cause" crowd and it's view that the Confederacy was just and heroic isn't any better than the tiki torchers.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 05:12 pm
@InfraBlue,
Lash wrote
Quote:
trying to control others’ speech.
Nobody is trying to control anyone else's speech here. None of us has the capacity to do so (other than moderators but they are policed by each other in their actions).

Criticism of the contents of anyone's speech (truth claims, ideas, etc) is, of course, fine.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 05:25 pm
Quote:
Former Vice President Joseph Biden launched his presidential campaign last week with an appeal to the shrinking ranks of Democrats who can imagine a Republican Party capable, and worthy, of compromise. In announcing that “We are in the battle for the soul of this nation,” Biden established political time as Before Trump and After Trump. Before, America was a land of decency. After, Nazis were called “very fine people” from the highest office in the land.

If Trump is re-elected, Biden warned, “He will forever and fundamentally alter the character of this nation.”

The myth that Trump has single-handedly degraded the nation is a comforting one. If the U.S. survives his sustained assault on democratic law, norms and culture — Trump’s thuggish calls to arrest his political opponents are now standard presidential rhetoric — that myth may even become necessary as the nation attempts to stitch democratic life back together.

In that case, the news media will pretend, as Biden does, that Trump was an aberration from, rather than a culmination of, Republican politics. Republicans will pretend their support for Trump was qualified and their criticism of him was vocal and constructive. And to help the nation move on, some Democrats (surely not all) will pretend to believe it all.
https://bloom.bg/2IRiCRN

Jesus, I hope Biden isn't that stupid.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 05:29 pm
@InfraBlue,
I agree that the cause of confederate generals should be viewed realistically by now.

I just don’t think Americans who haven’t been able to make that leap (to them) should be equated with people who support mass murder of Jews or blacks or any group of people.

I think real Nazis have earned that word and it should not be diluted.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 05:49 pm
Anyone who saw and heard what the nazis were saying and doing and who continued to mingle in and stay with the march supported the march.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Apr, 2019 06:05 pm
@InfraBlue,
Not true. I for one say leave the statues alone. Its history and true history should be taught in schools so people can understand the wrong and right of our civil war. Next thing you know someone will advocate doing away with Indian statues because we fought a war with them.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.1 seconds on 05/06/2024 at 07:16:42