Progressives (Liberals)

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Nope, they fired the first shot in actual fact.

Preemptive self defense against an imminent attack is still self defense. The aggressor is still the party who was about to attack.

And Israel didn't fire the first shot. They were blockaded (an act of war) before they took any military action themselves.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Blah.

He who fires the first shot, fires the first shot.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

People who fire the first shot can be the defender and not the aggressor. So if Israel had fired the first shot in the 1967 war, that would not change the fact that they were acting in self defense against Arab aggression.

But as it happens, the first shot in the war was an Arab blockade of an Israeli port.

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@oralloy,

No "if" there. Israel attacked Egypt first.

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@glitterbag,

Lovely.

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@Olivier5,

That is incorrect. Egypt blockaded an Israeli port before Israel made any moves against Egypt.

But if it had been true, it would not change the fact that Israel was acting in self defense against Arab aggression. People who fire the first shot can be the defender and not the aggressor.

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Quote:

One of the other nice things about wind power is that Scotland put a turbine across from one of Donald Trump’s golf courses

Gail Collins, with whom I am in love

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@oralloy,

It is a fact that Israel attacked first. Stop denying the obvious, you look like a fool.

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@Olivier5,

That isn't a fact. Egypt blockaded an Israeli port before Israel made any moves against Egypt.

But even if Israel really had attacked first, that would not change the reality that they were defending against Arab aggression.

Pleas for me to stop posting facts are silly. You should know by now that I am not susceptible to such nonsense.

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@oralloy,

A blockade may be a casus belli but it is not an attack. Remember that the US blockaded Cuba in 1962. Was America starting a war with Cuba then, and was Cuba entitled to nuke the US?

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@Olivier5,

A blockade is an act of war.

Cuba was indeed entitled to go to war over our blockade.

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@oralloy,

Alright, so you guys deserved to be nuked. Good to know.

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@Olivier5,

I wonder if there's a statute of limitations?

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@hightor,

I'm afraid not. Pray for your soul.

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Grumpy Birdie Sanders
@grumpybirdieS
·
9h
STOP 👏 CALLING 👏 NEOLIBERALS 👏 CENTRISTS . THEY 👏 ARE 👏 NOT👏 CENTRISTS . THEY 👏ARE👏RIGHT👏WINGERS .

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

But even if Israel really had attacked first, that would not change the reality that they were defending against Arab aggression.

And there you have it, ladies and germs. Bizarro worldview brought to you by the same knuckle-dragging ilk who still believe that 600,000 men died as a result of “Northern Aggression “.

1 Reply

@snood,

If you think the facts and law are a bizarre worldview, that might mean you are a leftist.

Northern aggression???

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Grumpy Birdie Sanders
@grumpybirdieS
·
9h
STOP 👏 CALLING 👏 NEOLIBERALS 👏 CENTRISTS . THEY 👏 ARE 👏 NOT👏 CENTRISTS . THEY 👏ARE👏RIGHT👏WINGERS .

There is it edgar. Way to go. You got it.

I'm a neoliberal.
Edgar says I'm a right-winger too.

I'll order my MAGA hat in a few minutes.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
The incident was played down by our political leadership, but the folks in the Sixth Fleet (Mediterranean) and the Navy as a whole understood the event very well, and knew it was a deliberate attack carried out by the Israelis to mask their intentions in the 1967 War,
How do they know?

It could have been an honest mistake. All of the signs that it was an American ship could have been a ruse by the Egyptians for all Israel knew.

That's not to say that it wasn't deliberate. But I don't see any proof that it was deliberate.

That was indeed the initial Israeli claim. from which they have since (quietly) withdrawn. However the ship was in international waters, painted in Navy colors, and flying the American flag throughout both extended attacks - about six Israeli aircraft were involved in each attack : both lasted about 20 minutes. The Israelis were using close in weapons ( rockets and guns), and the probability that multiple Israeli pilots didn't recognize the flag or this (rather well-known in the region) ship is zero. (I flew similar aircraft on similar close in missions for two decades and I know this.) Moreover Liberty was broadcasting her identity, location and the fact that she was under attack by multiple Israeli aircraft on multiple communications channels regularly used by the U.S. and Israel forces in emergencies.

Over a glass of Israeli wine I asked Ezer Weisman about the Liberty event: he didn't answer me but his subdued body language did.

oralloy wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
the 1967 War, which they initiated.
That is incorrect. Israel was reacting defensively to Arab aggression.

Israel initiated the surprise attacks on the Palestinian, Jordan, Syria and Egyptian, just as I wrote. Moreover they uncharacteristically withheld their plans from us. Glitterbag may have something to say about that.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

That was indeed the initial Israeli claim. from which they have since (quietly) withdrawn.

I am not aware of them withdrawing these claims.

georgeob1 wrote:

However the ship was in international waters, painted in Navy colors, and flying the American flag throughout both extended attacks - about six Israeli aircraft were involved in each attack : both lasted about 20 minutes. The Israelis were using close in weapons ( rockets and guns), and the probability that multiple Israeli pilots didn't recognize the flag or this (rather well-known in the region) ship is zero.

How were they to know that it was not an Egyptian ship flying the wrong flag as a ruse?

I recall that during the Iraq war an American fighter plane fired on a British tank that was clearly flying a British flag because they believed it was an Iraqi tank under disguise.

I think this is this incident that I am remembering:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident

georgeob1 wrote:

Moreover Liberty was broadcasting her identity, location and the fact that she was under attack by multiple Israeli aircraft on multiple communications channels regularly used by the U.S. and Israel forces in emergencies.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the people carrying out the attack were monitoring those channels.

But even if they were listening, how were they to know that the broadcasts were not a ruse?

georgeob1 wrote:

Israel initiated the surprise attacks on the Palestinian, Jordan, Syria and Egyptian, just as I wrote.

Yes, in defense against the invasion that was about to be launched against them.

georgeob1 wrote:

Moreover they uncharacteristically withheld their plans from us. Glitterbag may have something to say about that.

There probably wasn't much time to stop and talk once they realized that invasion was imminent.

1 Reply

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