Progressives (Liberals)

@livinglava,

Edgar doesn't discuss anything with me. All I can hope for is that he reads what I write, but he chooses not to engage, as is his right.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

I have had you on ignore and have not read a single post of yours, going back to my last thread that's similar to this. The dynamics have changed. In light of the turn the discussion has taken today, I have decided to reverse my stance and have lifted the ignore on your words. So, from here on, I will at least look at what you post.

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@edgarblythe,

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The ones I refer to as establishment Democrats are on the side of enough liberal issues to keep other establishment Democrats on their side. But they only go part way in the correct direction before they stall out and that is why people are becoming independents, Republicans and taking up arms as progressives.

How the hell does one get from FDR fan to becoming a Republican?
That's like trying to cure cancer with cigarettes.

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Roosevelt's vision has been on life support, sparked by Nixon and Reagan, put on steroids by the morass that is Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama, culminating in Trump.

I really don't see history or your position on Clinton/Obama as you do - even while I would much rather have seen the US move much further towards social democracy of the sort we see in Sweden, Denmark, Norway and elsewhere. But that's a big discussion.

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I don't see us as rebels, but the last ones standing, in defense of the people.

Far too black and white. Every movement is an amalgam of opinion and has a range of philosophies and values. To consider oneself/one's group as the only true representative of proper or legitimate governance is a very dangerous place to find oneself. Right wing extremists like the Birchers or Bannon or Norquist and theocratic groups occupy that ground.

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Many Democrats no longer know what Roosevelt intended and they turn to the other party when they don't get what they want. They voted for Trump because they no longer felt the Democrats were concerned with their welfare.

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@blatham,

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Far too black and white. Every movement is an amalgam of opinion and has a range of philosophies and values.

Agree 100%. I was once a democrat, once a republican, and now an Independent. I like and dislike positions of both parties, and the best place for me is to pick and choose what they are.
\

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Every cycle we are cajoled to accept reality and compromise. We did and so, from Nixon to now, we are back in the 1930s and have to essentially start over. No more corporate politicians for me.

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@cicerone imposter,

Hi CI! I hope you and your lovely wife are fine. I no longer have a lovely wife. She had the building maintenance people take me away.

I have no quarrel with those who operate as independents. I have never joined any party here in Canada though I've always supported our two leftist parties, NDP and Liberal.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Hi blatham, No more Donald Trump's for me! Once in a century is plenty enough for most people. I've always been the 'yellow sheep' in our family regarding religion and politics. I'm a fiscal conservative, but believe in many of the liberal policies. After all, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and social security/Medicare were a democrat' legislation.

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@Real Music,

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This is another change that makes me happy. I wish that every state were converted into (closed) primaries.

How did the movement toward open primaries begin? Who was pushing it? It seems like a recipe for mischief if not trouble — and it caused big problems in '16. If someone who considers themselves "independent" feels strongly enough toward a party candidate as to actually want to cast a vote for that candidate then I think the voter could be troubled to register in the appropriate political party. One can always return to being unenrolled at a later date.

I wish to hell they'd restructure the whole primary system. No more caucuses — I like that. And Iowa and New Hampshire have way too much influence. If there has to be a "first in the nation state" let that distinction be awarded every four years to the state with the highest voter turnout in the last election. Even better would to be really grown up about it, have states aggregated together and hold a series regional primaries. the order of which would be rotated each election. Address Citizens United, repeal all the voter suppression laws, break apart gerrymandered districts, set up clean election funds, institute ranked choice voting — these are all reforms which would serve as a foundation for real political change. The current system promotes cynicism and indifference.

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

Quote:

We did and so, from Nixon to now, we are back in the 1930s and have to essentially start over.

As you know, Nixon and his administration, their corruption and vileness notwithstanding, were in many ways more aligned with you and me than later GOP governments. I think Rick Perstein and Jane Mayer write about how this shift came about as well as anyone have.

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No more corporate politicians for me.

I think I know what you mean here (and if I have you right, I agree). But the trick is getting from here to there. Like the women's rights movement, the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, etc, it won't happen quickly and it will surely never arrive at perfect.

I gather that you place yourself on, for lack of a better term, on the "far left" (noting that this position presently is actually quite a bit more "centrist" than it was in the 60s and 70s when every university campus had Marxist/Leninist chapters/groups. I think it's important to understand that I definitely do not want people like you go disappear for the same reasons I never wanted the Greenpeace folks to disappear. Your help is needed, indeed I think it is essential. It simply doesn't follow from that, however, that I deem all Greenpeace operations or Sanders' behaviors to be optimal.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I've always been the 'yellow sheep' in our family

Now that made me laugh.

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@blatham,

We just have to hope that future generations will be more "enlightened" about equality for all. There is hope, you know. We Japanese went through that progress from the "yellow peril" to total integration in one generation. Our family is made up from Chinese, German, Spanish, English, Polynesian, Russian, and even some Japanese.

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@edgarblythe,

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Many Democrats no longer know what Roosevelt intended...

Which is why we can't keep parading the New Deal as a practical solution to the situation in 2019. Society has changed too much.

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...and they turn to the other party when they don't get what they want.

That's part of the problem right there — and I'd add something:

...and they turn to the other party when they don't get what they want right away.

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I'm essentially a socialist, modified to allow private ownership and profit.

Nixon, before he got into trouble, was popular enough to easily win reelection. He showed that conservatives had the potential to take the mantle from the Democrats. His handling of protesters and the war was demonic, from my point of view. It was not his intent to tear down the social gains we made, so long as that did not interfere with his personal agenda.

Johnson fractured the Democrats, with Vietnam. Reagan set the stage for taking apart the social safety net. Simplistic, but essentially so.

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@cicerone imposter,

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Our family is made up from Chinese, German, Spanish, English, Polynesian, Russian, and even some Japanese.

Polynesian!? Well I certainly won't be coming over to your house again!

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@edgarblythe,

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I'm essentially a socialist, modified to allow private ownership and profit.

That describes my position as well.

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I'll leave you guys to this discussion but it was good talking with you again, Edgar and you too CI

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

I have never joined any party here in Canada though I've always supported our two leftist parties, NDP and Liberal.

ack
Liberals haven't been leftist in yonks

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@blatham,

We do have some great Chinese, German, and Mexican food in this area. My aunt in Hawaii married a Polynesian, so when we go to Hawaii, we always meet up with my cousin at least to say "hello," and share a meal.

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@blatham,

Thanks.

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Progressives (Liberals)

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