Capital Punishment and the Bible(particularly New Testament)

Steve wrote:

its the only way forward. We get there slowly, improving as we know more. Hypothesis, experiment, theory.

Theory falls, new paradigm. New hypothesis, new theory.

Cogito ergo sum-- everything is based on faith, save for your own existence. Thus, my belief is a God is no different that your faith that your senses are telling you the right thing on a foundational level.

Steve wrote:

Creatonism is crap
Intelligent design is crap wrapped in tinsle paper

Atheism is poop.
Evolution is poop with a "THIS IS FACT" sticker on it.

Steve wrote:

The scientific method will not be defeated by pseudoscience.

And God will not be disproven with the logic of man. What's your point?

Steve wrote:

Do not leave your trusted posts to be filled by less-capable educators.

Less-capable? What, by your standards? I hardly think you're in any position to set the standards.

Steve wrote:

All reputable science knows that "intelligent" design is nonsense, yet those of the public that do not know are crying out for your wisdom!

Riiiiight. "All reputable science". Give me a break. Here's an idea-- pick up a scientific document by J. Sarfati, by Ken Ham, and anyone affiliated with AiG. Tons of scientists-- many the top in their respective fields-- supporting intelligent design. And using science, nonetheless! Very Happy

cicerone imposter wrote:

What disturbs me most is that some school districts in the US are including ID into their school curriculum.

What disturbs me most is that some school districtrs in the US are only including evolution in their school curriculum-- and furthermore presenting the evolutionary theory[/u] as fact...furthermore even impending efforts to make known that Evolution is a theory, and not proven fact.

Magginkat wrote:

Science & logic in creationism? Care to explain that since evolution and creationism are totally opposite of each other? I would be especially interested in the idea that there is science in creationism.

Well since Evolution is based on faith just like Creationism, and both use science to support their respective sides, I'd say yeah, there's science in Creationism.

Magginkat wrote:

I question the intelligence of the writers of the bible.

And I question your intelligence after claiming there is not science or logic in creationism. Again read anything by J. Sarfati, by Ken Ham, and anyone affiliated with AiG...there is indeed science in Creationism. Wink

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thank you rex. Good post, but try not attacking other people(unless of course they do to you then it is fair game).

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It's OK headofthefield, simply being an atheist is essentially an attack on Rex (and you head) so go your hardest folks, you don't need any further justification. Smile

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Magginkat wrote:

Biliskner wrote:
Eorl wrote:
Quote:
it makes sense that Christians should not take the life of another human

We're not talking about christians, we're talking about the USA.

USA claims to be a Christian nation (or government at least).

They could fool me. Christians shouldn't be doing the things this country has done & continues to do. The one word that comes to mind constantly is Hypocrisy.

OH and by the way, if george bu$h is a Christian I am the Virgin Mother.

That man gives a whole new meaning to hypocrisy.

These days if someone approaches me and says they're a Christian or they've been saved, I do everything I can to get the hell away from them

Yep, and they could fool me too. I'm not saying that USA is the example of the *bestest* Christian country and that we all should follow them. I am SAYING that USA claims to be a Christian country.

like i said in my previous post:

Quote:

I say USA is a country based in Christian roots, but am uplifting them (those roots) and becoming more and more secular, yet they still call themselves Christian. Therefore we have a blurred grey line. Too bad Christianity is a all or nothing ... err ... "religion".

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I don't think the USA is or claims to be a christian country. Christian laws are not in effect, and no christian church has any direct power. How is it a christian country? I have this weird idea that it is a democracy that promises freedom. Am I wrong?

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Magginkat wrote:

Say HUH? I had to read that ramble two or three times to figure out that you were talking about "Paul, Stephen, etc". You start the sentence in the present tense and then switch to past tense.

You're right about one thing. That was a ramble. It was a ramble and a half, and so is this one.

Jesus lived, Jesus died - 30 A.D. and Jesus rose - 30.3 A.D.
Jesus' 10 apostles died for their faith - 30.3 - 80 A.D.
John, Jesus' apostle, exiled for being a follower of Christ.
Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles" beheaded for following Christ.
Other followers, Stephen etc. stoned by the crowd for following Christ.

How is that starting the sentence in the present tense then switching to past tense? That is 6 sentences I copied and pasted from yesterday's post. so exactly which sentence are you talking about that you had to read "two or three times to figure out that you were talking about "Paul, Stephen, etc"." There's my half arsed answer that requires more questions to know what you're talking about.

Magginkat wrote:

Even so tell that to the 1500+ dead U.S. military members & over 100,000 dead Iraqis. Or does this declaration not apply to them?

What declaration

Magginkat wrote:

You ask me who do "I think" Jesus is and then advise me not to give you a half arsed answer because if I do you will not answer. Big deal... did you see anything posted here that says I give a hoot who answers and who does not? I have a feeling that any answer I give you will be half arsed in YOUR opinion.

Ok my bad. I'll accept any type of answers that i get and will answer according to my judgement (see the flurry of criticisms i'll get now for "judging poeple".)

A half arsed answer means to have NOT "thought-through" with evidence. well at least that's what my english teacher in primary school taught me. maybe she was just a crap teacher.

EXAMPLE: Why did Bush attack IRAQ?

Half arsed answer:
'cos he's just a money laundering moron that needs more money for his high arsed campaign of making sure his great great great grandchildren can fudge the voting ballots and be PM for another 650 million years in a row.

Thought-through answer:
Well the oil rigs provide alot of income into the USA economy OR
Saddam is a dictator. He oppresses his people and kills them for no reason. We need to help. OR
I feel sorry for the iraqi's who were born there, i wanna help them. (compassion or God created us equal thus since iraq's policies not equal human rights we are obligated to help our fellow humans) OR
Saddam is not complying with UN inspections thus to prevent chemical warfare (wherever) we need to disarm him NOW.

Get the point? The half arsed answer might be true, and sometimes amusing but it is still half arsed.

Magginkat wrote:

I think Jesus was a religious type that pops up from time to time, just like the current versions although he couldn't possibly be as nasty, slimmy, & greedy as, say, Bennie Hill, Jerry Falwell, or Jimmy Swaggert.

gg.

Magginkat wrote:

You say, "Here are some real historical facts: Jesus lived, Jesus died - 30 A.D. and Jesus rose - 30.3 A.D."

Historical? I'll give you the Jesus lived, Jesus died bit but Jesus rose? Prove it!

Ok hop into my time machine i'll take you back to where he laid

Magginkat wrote:

Show me the history book that says beyond any doubt this Jesus person rose from the dead. You can't. The Bible is not a history book and it was written by common men to forward their beliefs. It has been translated thousands of times and has thousands of conflicts of in the many stories told. Your "historical" (hysterical?) 'facts' are based on blind faith....... faith that the people who wrote it weren't imbibing of the Poppies that grew abundantly in that area for one thing.

Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ is your next step. As much as i've love to write 400 pages to "prove it to you" - i'm sure you are just as capable of going on ebay and buying a copy for AU$5.95. Then you'll have your proof.
OR
Just read the Bible and tell me which bits you say i'm basing my blind faith from. That way you spend Zero money 'cos the Bible is free online.
I've been reading it for 5 years now and done studies from Genesis to 3 John plus Revelation and all the books inbetween.
I CAN say it is historical, 'cos it matches with other non-Christian sources in OT and NT events. For your amusement: Tacitus, Josephus the Historian, Egyptian/Babylonian culture history etc.

Magginkat wrote:

Additionally, just about everything found in "Christian" writings can be found in Greek, Norse, etc., mythology based on "stories" & events thousands of yrs before Jesus was born. Explain that one! No I am not going to take the time to research & read all that information just to prove a point to you. You can climb up to Mr. Olympus and try to disprove my comments if you desire.

Explain? why? It's all good. Who copies who doesn't matter. What is truth however, does matter. You REALLY think the Greek had it correct then the Christians copied them?
Alright. Sure. Ok. Yeh. I'd buy that (sorry, aussie sarcasm).

Magginkat wrote:

I've tried to read all your responses but you bounce all over the ball park, ranting and raving until I got to your last post which left me wondering if you are a Christian or a brazen atheist? It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Just my two cents!

I salute you for reading my ramble (no really I do) 'cos it was midnight here in AUS and it was bloody freezing when i wrote it (and it's d@m$ supposed to be summer!).

/ramble off.

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Eorl wrote:

I don't think the USA is or claims to be a christian country. Christian laws are not in effect, and no christian church has any direct power. How is it a christian country? I have this weird idea that it is a democracy that promises freedom. Am I wrong?

when you speak to Muslims they always refer to USA as *Christian* - i don't know why 'cos i know only a very few muslims and i don't live in the States. I'll ask my international friends and get back to you....

It's like IRAQ is a Muslim state. Not every is a muslim or reads their Koran but *generally* speaking, we can *put them* into that *box*, or something like that.

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Nope, Iraq is not and was not a muslim state. Afghanistan was a muslim state, it was run by a religious leaders and the laws were muslim laws. Now, it isn't...it's a democracy as is Iraq (kinda) Yes muslim countries often refer to the USA as a christian country, but they are wrong to do so just because a large %age of the population is of that faith.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Montana said "But then there's also the issue regarding innocent people being executed".

I can put forward many reasons why the death penalty is wrong, not least the one above.

But only one reason for it...vengeance. Blood lust, call it what you will.

And as some one mentioned the bible here, wasn't there something in there about "vengeance is mine saith the Lord"

a reply that will be at least ON TOPIC Very Happy

"an eye for an eye"
"a tooth for a tooth"

commandments from the OT is actually a *restriction* of the type of revenge that the Israelites could inflict. that is to say:
"if someone poked out your eye, you can poke his eye out too BUT you cannot poke his eye and steal his wife and enslave his daughters" etc.

"The Kingdom of God" as Jesus puts it brings in a whole new ball game. It's like Jesus gives the world guns and bats, and Christians (convert or otherwise), his Holy Spirit and his peace/Word with the stamp of Eternal Life. The new covenant brings in mercy and grace, the old *seems* to reflect justice and holiness, although the two testaments cannot be said to be independent.

So those who are killed for the "Sake of the Gospel (aka: that Jesus is the Christ)" - as is happening in China and North Korea as per Voice of the Martyrs, yes, the Lord God has said:

"Say to those with fearful hearts, "Be strong, do not fear; your
God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine
retribution he will come to save you." -Is. 35:4

For:

"Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the
deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue
shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and
streams in the desert." - Is. 35:5 - 6

So yes vengeance is the Lord God's and not ours to take....

A snippet for those who know not of the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection"

"They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the
ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you,
while he was still with you in Galilee: `The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.'" Then they remembered his words." - Luke 24:1-8

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"Scopes' Trial."

Those two words just make me laugh. Lots and lots.

(this is a half arsed comment about how Creationism is dogged upon no basis and Evolution is worshipped and sacrificed to with unblemished lambs.)

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Creatonism is crap
Intelligent design is crap wrapped in tinsle paper

The scientific method will not be defeated by pseudoscience. Do not leave your trusted posts to be filled by less-capable educators. All reputable science knows that "intelligent" design is nonsense, yet those of the public that do not know are crying out for your wisdom!

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44472&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80

I can't be bothered typing it all out again (or for that matter, copying and pasting it all)

Sometimes I wish that nuclear variation would just vary ever so slightly that we'd all collapse into nothing... then my point would be proven... but if that happened then we wouldn't be here to talk about it... oops! Laughing

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Magginkat wrote:

Science & logic in creationism? Care to explain that since evolution and creationism are totally opposite of each other? I would be especially interested in the idea that there is science in creationism.

EXAMPLE:

Person X: "Hey guys, look at this rock."

Person E: "ooo.. that looks like it's 6 MYO."

Person C: "ooo.. that looks like it's 4,000 YO."

Who's right? In any case, my C14 dating will encompass Person C's hypothesis. But Person E? 6 MYO? Radio Isotopes don't last that long my friend.

In this simple example, Person E is *automatically* ruled out, simply because there is no experimental evidence able to be experimented on for his conjecture, which all you guys are so adament about.
How do you date a 6MYO rock?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

What disturbs me most is that some school districts in the US are including ID into their school curriculum.

You should be worried about another Hitler rising (sorry to be distasteful).

No God, no morals.
No morals, no freedom.
Fear for your children's children.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

It's also interesting that to prove the bible, only the bible is there to defend it's own words.

Authority does not need to be given.
Authority is recognized.

Either you recognize the Authority of the Bible or you don't (and it is clear that you fall into the latter category.)

When i read a historical book for my subject and *hear* the events of the Reinassiance, I recognize the historian's authority on the matter. Then I cross reference specific events with other historians. If it matches, it's all go. If it doesn't, you have more work to do.

I checked the events of the Bible with other non-Christian/Jewish sources. 'nuff said.

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Biliskner, please stop spouting stuff as though it's simple fact. It's obvious you don't know Jack Schmidt.

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Eorl wrote:

Nope, Iraq is not and was not a muslim state. Afghanistan was a muslim state, it was run by a religious leaders and the laws were muslim laws. Now, it isn't...it's a democracy as is Iraq (kinda) Yes muslim countries often refer to the USA as a christian country, but they are wrong to do so just because a large %age of the population is of that faith.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/003/28.83.html

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cicerone imposter wrote:

What disturbs me most is that some school districts in the US are including ID into their school curriculum.

Why? If you believe that a) schools ought to be run by the government, and b) government policy ought to be decided by democratic majority vote, the fact that c) most Americans think creation should be taught alongside with evolution in public schools means that d) it ought to. I sympathize with your being disturbed by your compatriots' views on this. But as far as the school districts are concerned, they are merely doing their jobs; they are playing their part in your democratic system, just as they were designed to. (Because I disagree with proposition a), my solution would be to design the school system differently by voucherizing it. But maybe that's another topic for another thread.)

As to capital punishment, I have a strong visceral reaction against it on the one hand . Intellectually, on the other hand, I agree with the spirit of Terry's argument. The risk of having prisons execute innocents ought to be weighted against the risk of criminals killing innocents and the contribution of capital punishment in reducing that risk. As far as I have read about it, the empirical evidence so far doesn't seem conclusive enough to make a final judgment. If the debate settles on the side of capital punishment being a net saver of innocent lives, I would reluctantly override my gut aversion against the practice. But this hasn't happened so far, so I'm still opposed to capital punishment.

As to the Bible's position on capital punishment, Leviticus and Deuteronomy both prescribe capital punishment on all kinds of offenses. If anyone in the New Testament took it back, I'm not aware of it. I don't think anyone did.

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Eorl wrote:

Biliskner, please stop spouting stuff as though it's simple fact. It's obvious you don't know Jack Schmidt.

ooo... haven't had that accusation before in a forum, care to elaborate?

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Quote:

..from the site you posted seems to re-inforce my point. The USA is not a christian country. Nor is Australia by the way.

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Quote:

Biliskner, please stop spouting stuff as though it's simple fact. It's obvious you don't know Jack Schmidt.

ooo... haven't had that accusation before in a forum, care to elaborate

?

I apologise, you can say anything you want. Smile

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Capital Punishment and the Bible(particularly New Testament)

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