Back to Leave No Child Behind

Cicerone Imposter - Yes, I also am more impressed by the European system. Even in England where we are living right now and my two children are attending school, I see a much broader variety of choice in terms of academic and/or vocational training. Here, the student makes the choice to pursue an academic track and continue on to University, to attend a vocational "college" at sixteen and pursue a job or technical skill through an apprenticeship, or to leave school altogether and enter the world of work. I have noticed that when the student makes the choice, he or she pursues whatever choice they make with a greater sense of investment and responsibility. But yes, there appears to be something for everyone here, which is not the case in the US right now.

Chic - I understand that all children will not score identically - but for some, the tests are unrealistic, impossible to pass, and a humiliating experience. In terms of your other points, I pretty much agree with everything you said with a few minor caveats. We probably don't need to invest more money - it just needs to be distributed differently. Home culture is extremely important - and yes, Asians are a shining example of that- but having lived in the south and worked primarily with disadvantaged black males, I'll just say that America is reaping what she has sown there. And forty years of integration, welfare and affirmative action programs haven't begun to address the effects of 400 years of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and government sanctioned economic and social disenfranchisement. But that's another thread...
We did not have a catch-up year in the elementary years in the school system I worked in. We had something called "Prep Academy" in which ninth graders who had not passed their competency exams for highschool were remedialized, but again, too little too late. I think after second grade is a better time than after third - hell - why wait- we can all see who's struggling in kindergarten.
My view of mainstreaming is different than yours - I agree that the students don't tend to get what they need - but I think it's the special needs students who suffer. The other kids don't want them there, the regular classroom teacher often doesn't want them there - it's not a good situation for them. The good student will always learn. I was a good student and in many classes, I practically taught myself, and that continues today. That's one thing that will never change, those who love to learn, and for whom it comes easily, will always pursue knowledge with or without the constant attention of a teacher. My concern is with those who are struggling - but that's why I chose the path I chose I guess. Just a different perspective.
Yes, I agree, there has been a shift away from vocational education in an effort to seem PC and non-racist. But if you ask the black kids and their parents what they'd like to see - you'd hear more than a few asking for quality vocational programs. I stress the word quality.
Interesting conversation - thanks for your input. I'm just hoping (against hope) that things have progressed by the time I get back. :wink:

Grabbing a minute before beginning my day of subbing in a high school special needs classroom. On the menu are six full periods -- no prep time -- which includes "Writing Skills;" "The American Experience;" "Young Adult Living," and "Applied Geometry." These are classes in English, history, geometry and common sense that have been created for kids whose intellectual abilities are below average.
The idea is to help them become independent adults who are capable of holding down a minimally responsible job.

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I'd like to comment on this:

Now, I must apologize to "plainoldme" I am sorry and did not mean to put words in your mouth. I must have
misunderstood. Will you please explain to me why it is important to look at the newspaper to see the homes and the home prices.'

I may have misunderstood the meaning of your sentence.

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The context in which I wrote this was stated in plain, clear English. It was in answer to how to know whether or not schools were failing. I learned after only a few weeks of housing hunting for the first time in the mid-1970s, that a potential buyer can tell how good the schools are by the price of the houses. People want to live in communities with good schools, creating a demand to live there. Demand forces the price of homes up.

I never said that it was "important" to look at the prices asked for houses. It is just an indicator of the quality of schools in that town or that neighborhood. Consider the Greater Boston area. Due north of the city is a town where the schools are poor. The largely Victorian houses there are cheap. Directly to the west, is a town whose schools consistently rank within the top three in the state and the cost of domecile is five or six times higher for equivalent houses. A person moving to Massachusetts from another part of the country only needs to look at the real estate listing to know where the good schools are.

Aidan -- I like your reply very much and don't care how long it is.

Furthermore, I have seen educators ask the same question you have posed: how can we all reach the same point in the near future when we start at so many different places.
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My father, who will turn 83 this year, talked about boys (they never seemed to be girls) who were held back and stayed in the same grade until they were old enough to leave school at 14 or 16, so that there were third graders who had to shave.

The kids I have in class today behave well but just don't function on the 10th grade level. Their reading is far behind. I should point out that there are three students in this class, in a school where the mean SAT score exceeds the Massachusetts' score which exceeds the national average. They have the regular history text but take it at a slower pace. They read simpler novels than do the kids in the standard English classes. In other words, they are just given a slower-paced version of high school.

Had they been retained in fifth grade, they would have been given the same American history over and over again. These kids are working on John Marshall and the Supreme Court which is giving them some insight into the courts, the separation of branches of govt and the notion that the Founding Fathers were not a unified group of men. These are concepts too sophisticated for 10 year olds. However, unlike the members of the honors class that is now debating in the library as I write to you, these kids can not perform rapid and in-depth analysis of the material.

Using history as a single example, it should be clear that to have retained these kids in 5th grade would have been unjust to them. To mainstream with the high school students would be unjust as they could never hold their own with the honors class. There is a need for different levels and this school is doing a fairly decent job of placing students at levels appropriate to their intellect.

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Now, our NCLB supporter chick or whatever he calls himself, talks about teaching the Three Rs. I have seen some of the fifth grade writing samples within this school system. They match my eighth grade teacher's expectations of my class at a parochial school, which then exceeded the public school in that subject area. I would expect the demands made of today's kids to be stricter than the demands made on my class, 44 years ago. In terms of sentence structure and vocabulary, today's fifth grader functions as an eighth-grader, circa 1961. So, chick, the kids ARE BEING TAUGHT AT LEAST ONE OF THE "R'S."

Both cicerone imposter and I have called attention to your grammar. You told c.i. that he was being small minded. In context, he was not. You are criticising today's teachers while you demonstrate your inability to hold your own with today's students.

Furthermore, both c.i. and I have asked you to do what is called "modeling," that is, to project what would happen should vouchers be given willynilly to parents.

What happens in the town of Placeville, Alaska, which has three schools . . . two public schools, one serving 300 students and another serving 500; and one parochial school which serves the remaining 200 students . . . when the smaller of the public schools is forced to close because it failed to meet federal standards?

A whole bunch of bad stuff is what happens.

Without getting into the specifics of the NCLB, let me pose a general opinion that people can respond to or not as they like:

It seems to me that we have an idea of what is normal, what is average, and that our public school systems are designed to make every single child fit into that average, whether they are above or below said average. This has catastrophic effects on both the very smart and the very dumb.

After my older brother was found to be gifted and talented, I was tested at a young age for the same thing. We were both put into the magnet schooling program in Houston and took a 1.5 hour long bus ride both ways to attend the G/T school in downtown Houston (we didn't like that, but the alternative was to skip a grade (two for my bro, sheesh)). By the fifth grade we were at the 12th grade level in every subject, writing, math, whatever. It didn't seem special to me at the time because we were surrounded by other children who were of equal intelligence and some were way smarter, lol!

The problem was, as good as the elementary school was, the secondary and high schools weren't. I was so bored with school by the 7th grade that I stopped even trying at all; what's the point of doing busy work over, and over, and over, and over again? I'd rather just make bad grades on the homework and ace the tests, which is what I proceeded to do for the next ten years until I left college. My older brother was even worse. My parents couldn't understand why they had kids who were obviously intelligent but didn't make good grades, it must have been frustrating.

My younger brother, on the other hand, was born with a learning disability. Great kid, smart even, just gets confused while dealing with long lists of numbers or strict rules of grammar. This gave him large fits when he was trying to do the NCLB style tests; with enough time, he could always figure things out, but the tests are timed! So he was constantly under pressure by his teachers to perform at a level that was actually very different than the one he performed at.

I find it very interesting that when a child is out of the norm, either too intelligent or too disadvantaged, they are failed by the public school system. We've turned to a lot of different solutions for this problem, such as magnet schooling, etc., but the worst has to be drugging our kids up (I am a big opponent of putting kids on drugs to help them study. I can't tell you how many of my friends are practically addicted to Adderal in College, b/c it really does focus ya. Scary).

Our school system needs to be revamped from the ground up. The practice of trying to make everyone into the same, median student has to end immediately. The process of judging a school by how close they can get to that median student is the worst possible idea; it only exacerbates what is already a poor situation.

I believe that we suffer nowdays from a problem in our society which I loosely term the 'movie rental problem'; i.e., ever go to the movie store, and be unable to pick something (or have a hard time) because there are just SO MANY CHOICES? The same problem exists for many, if not most, of our teenagers today. There is precious little job or vocational training available for those who don't desire to go to college until Public School is over. There are precious few advanced programs for those kids who belong in college classes at the age of 13, so they eventually get bored and disillusioned with the entire system. The only ones who survive the system unscathed and prosper are... the average students. This has lead to average results in our society, I believe.

The vast majority of knowledge we seek to impart to our children, of all ages, is less than practical in nature. There are no classes on running your life. No training on how insurance works, or how to balance a checkbook, or how to deal with family problems. No peace studies, no environmental studies, no home repair class (wood and metal shops are a joke these days, oldsters, in case ya didn't know), no individual attention to students' individual needs; who has time? My high school had 3500 students in it amongst the four grades. While there were some excellent teachers and people who tried hard, there simply isn't the time or manpower to give kids the personally tuned teaching experience that would really allow our students to flourish to the level of their greatest potential, at a rate in which they can achieve said potential.

Throwing more money at the problem isn't the solution. Standardized testing isn't the solution. I believe we need a complete review and revamping of our system of education as a country, a review which will focus on the three pillars neccessary for the complete education of a child: School, Home, and Community.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

I agree with almost everything you just said and in a perfect world...
Do you think that any of us will ever be able to let go of our own agendas long enough to try to work together and create something that would provide adequately for students of all abilities? Dealing with parents and administrators has hardened me and almost served to turn me (a dyed- in- the -wool optimist) into a hopeless cynic. I've lost a lot of faith in human nature to be honest with you. I've seen too many people fighting to get what they need for their kids without even considering the fact that it may impact someone elses child negatively. And I've seen really good, caring people take on the title of administrator and seem to lose his or her soul - selling out to the whoever it is that butters their bread. I've watched as they do what they have to do to keep the most powerful parents with the loudest voices happy, all the while knowing it's not what the majority of the kids need. Watching the level of selfishness, self absorption and single minded out and out competitiveness increase over the years I've taught has blown me away. It was a good time for me to take a break :wink: because I don't want to be bitter and cynical. It does seem that we need an overhaul of something - and maybe all the medications being prescribed (and I agree - it's scary how many kids and young adults can't get through the day without being drugged in one way or another) tells me it's more than our schools that are sick.
But maybe that's just the atmostphere in the community I taught in. Maybe there are communities out there that will work together to make sure every child gets an education they can use. Sounds like plainoldme works in one that is at least trying. That's a hopeful sign.

That's why I think the solution to our education problems can only come from a combination of school reform, PARENTAL education, and a greater involvement with the community.

I agree that it sounds like a fantasy world. I think a lot of things must have sounded like a fantasy world idea to begin with, but they got done eventually through a lot of hard work and, unfortunately, crisis situations.

I doubt we will change our ways here in America until we reach a crisis due to our failure to do so. (un)fortunately, that doesn't seem too far off nowdays.

I'm considering home-schooling my kids when I have 'em someday... at least partially...

Cycloptichorn

Cyclo, Well stated opinion with personal experience and observations. I was never that "gifted" student in grade school, so my perspective may be somewhat biased towards students who have struggled through all twelve years. My siblings all did well in school; my younger brother was valedictorian of his high school class. Today, he's an ophthalmologist with an MBA, and serves our state as a legislator. I believe he serves on the education committee. As the dummy of our family, I have somehow earned a degree in accounting, and did fairly well in my career. What I'm trying to say is that those students who struggle through grade school still has potential if provided with the right motivation and opportunities. I believe my enlistment into the US Air Force did it for me.

Homeschooling is definitely an option. I'm fortunate in that both of my kids have been pretty adaptable and flexible and have functioned well in school , so I've never really needed to seriously consider it (because I find that I have infinite patience with other peoples' kids, but I'm too wrapped up emotionally with my own to function objectively enough to be their teacher). But I've known people who have done it for philosophical reasons and I find their kids to be really interesting and unique individuals. Definitely less pressured and more at peace with the world around them in some ways than the majority of kids trying to fight their way through what can be a really dog eat dog, merciless rut (to put it bluntly). No wonder so many of them are on meds. Can you tell I'd like school to be different for kids too? I wasn't kidding when I said it was the right time for me to take a break. But yeah, maybe you should be a teacher. Have you ever considered it? But at least keep dreaming - nothing I admire more than an idealist - I'm right there with you.

Our two boys have also done very well in public school. Our older son graduated summa cum laude from undergrad and with honors from graduate studies. My wife graduated with honors from high school, nursing school, and college. Our young son has all As and Bs, and he's take some tough courses in advanced math, physics, and chemistry.

Heh,

I don't believe grades are any indication, whatsoever, of how much one actually knows or has learned. I know plenty of middle-of-the-road people who made great grades, because they simply worked hard.

I mean, I'm not knocking yer kids for making high grades; just saying that they really aren't indicative of anything besides the ability to do exactly what you are told, when you are told to do it. They don't show you anything at all about creativity, or judgement, or intelligence; and everything about dilligence and the ability to recite memorized data. Which I never really saw as being the point of an education, especially these days, as data is all around us constantly.



I've considered it. Don't know if that is the area for me or not. Don't know if I would have the patience to deal with the current system and I somehow doubt my ideas would be accepted by the mainstream system as it stands.

I'd like to be a private and personal tutor for a few different kids. Get a real chance to challenge them in ways that traditional school typically does not. I have always thought that a more classical teacher-student socratic relationship is what leads to true learning: not the memorization of knowledge, not the repetition of fact, not the explanation of a formula, but the instillation of the ideas in a childs' mind that EVERY question can be analyzed if not solved, that creativity is a more important virtue than conformity, that morals don't exist in a vacuum, that one can change society and affect our world.

/idealism

Cycloptichorn

Any student would be lucky to have a tutor like you - and you'd probably find it easy to find private tutoring work depending on what your degree is in. If you are at all adept at math and/or the sciences - you'd be in great demand. It is hard for people who are more independent or free thinkers to function within the public school system, because it is such a bureaucracy, but I have found that if you're seen as being good at what you do, you're given some leeway. And though teachers get a lot of bad press these days, and some of it is admittedly deserved - I feel lucky to have worked with some amazingly creative, bright and well-intentioned people who I feel lucky to have met and been inspired by. There's never a shortage of ideas or discussion - it's not all frustration and disillusionment. Sounds like I'm trying to recruit you, huh? But I'm glad I chose it as my career - I can't picture anything being more rewarding. The kids are lovely, in general- they're definitely the best part.

Cis - It does feel good when things go smoothly and well for your children doesn't it? There is a tendency today to disregard grades - but I see a lot of bright kids working really hard for those A's and B's and I think it's important to give them credit for their discipline, hard work and achievement.

Give it a shot. I myself feel I haven't the patience and empathy to be effective as a conventional classroom teacher, but I've found rich reward as a volunteer teachin' summer-camp-type recreational stuff to disabled/disadvantaged kids . Helluva high.

I can imagine so.

In some ways, I've never seriously looked into it because, frankly, I don't know where to start. I don't have a teaching certificate and don't know if I would need one, I'm not sure how to go about contacting a potential client, and I guess I would want to do some background work on my own before I would be ready to take on the serious position of being a tutor. Any ideas where I could get started looking for such?

My field of study is history, but I am quite conversant in both the hard and soft sciences, mathematics, writing, art, and physical education.

Thanks for getting me thinking about this again.

Cycloptichorn

Now that I am working at a better computer, I hope that I can avoid unnecessary mistakes.

First of all, I must commend what I think is a great deal of idealism that I find in these posts. If I may say so, that is indeed commendable in this age of cynicism.

I will attempt to address point by point in a succession of posts so that my responses will hopefully be clearer.

So that I do not "misunderstand "plain old me" again I will replicate what I think he said--


A person moving to Massachusetts from another part of the country only needs to look at the adlistisiings to find out where the good schools are.

Or, if I may paraphrase, good schools usually exist where the housing prices are higher.

absolutely.

BUT WHY?

Is if because the people who live in the expensive houses can and do fund their neighborhood schools so much more than other areas that the schools produce high achievers?

NO. And I can give and quote many studies to show that more money for schools does not necessarily raise test scores.

What is it then? There are studies that show clearly that the people who live in those expensive houses are on average more intelligent and more highly educated. Intelligence is heritable.
Studies proving this can be had on request.

I do not recall that I have said that I ever said I am completely in favor of NCLB. I did say, however, that NCLB may lead communities to try to solve their problems in Education by using novel methodologies.

I believe that Cyclo said that we need a combination of school reform, parental education and a greater involvement with community.

I do endorse his ideas but am constrained to point out that many cities, including one with which I am very familiar, Chicago, have all attempted to REFORM EDUCATION, EDUCATE PARENTS AND HAVE A GREATER INVOLVEMENT WITH COMMUNITY.

The Chicago Public School system gave the neighborhood school policy planning to the parents and the community persons in the various neighborhoods the right to structure the schools their children attend as members of a local board of education voted on by the residents of the community.

Alas, since that was done, achievement scores HAVE NOT IMPROVED.

with regard to the unfortunate example of the fourteen year olds who were retained in the fifth grade, I can only say that I hope that there is no schools system left in the USA that still does such a thing.

The Chicago Public Schools have a policy which is at least thirty years old that no child should be retained in Elementary School past the age of fourteen.

Of course, there are fourteen year olds who cannot read beyond the third grade level but in Chicago they are not retained but rather sent on to High School.
What do we do with these students?

As I have already explained, there were schools called Vocational Schools in Chicago. Most of them were closed ten to fifteen years ago. These school gave students grounding in the basic trades. The schools were closed mainly because some groups felt that they were being used as warehouses for minority children who read at low levels.

The request for "modeling" of vouchers has already been done. Terry M. Moe in his book- "Schools. Vouchers and the American Public" has shown that the small number of voucher schools operating in the inner cities of Milwaukee, Cleveland and Florida, as well as the advent of "private voucher schools" and as "charter schools"-- Schools that are operated under the authority of Public School System-eg- Chicago--but are free from many union and system regulations have been warmly accepted by the parents in those areas.
Why?

Those schools maintain standards:

a. School Uniforms in most cases

b. Stringent Disciplinary Rules

c.Parental Involvement is mandatory if the parents wish to keep the children in those schools.

They are flourishing.

To those of you that are teaching--I have a question which is, in my mind, a critical question.

Have you ever, at lunch with your colleagues or in some meeting, heard a frustrated teacher complain that he or she could do so much with the group she had if it had not been for two or three students in the group, which, in the estimation of the teacher, made learning impossible?

Cyclo- You don't need a teaching certificate to tutor, or even to teach in some private schools. In terms of tutoring - it does help if you have at least a BA or BS - just to show the parents who will be hiring you that you have a formal grounding in whatever subject you'll be helping their child with. If your background is in history - you'll probably be hired to tutor for that but then can introduce your other subject strengths as they get to know you and you get to know the kid and figure out how you can best help him or her. I know my sister was paying a tutor who was helping my niece with chemistry something like 40 bucks an hour - and she said that was pretty standard in her town. I don't know about Austin (great city by the way - I'm a native San Antonion) - but in higher end suburban school systems you can make a mint tutoring and never be wanting for students.
Just put an ad out in the classifieds, or go to your local highschool, bring a copy of your resume to the principal, and ask if you can put up a flyer on the faculty bulletin board. In my job I was always looking for people to recommend to parents (I just didn't have time to do private tutoring- and actually couldn't have done it in Science if truth be told) . Our school kept a list of prospective tutors on file. You may have to have a police check done - but all that entails is going down to your local police station and having your fingerprints taken. If you're not a felon - you're cleared pretty quickly.

If you want to teach - but don't want to go through the whole education school program, at most universities there is a M.Ed that takes a year. That's the route I took. I took a few education courses as an undergrad - but couldn't bear to wade through what honestly did seem like a lot of busy work at the time, so I majored in English (my first love) and then got a master's degree and teaching certificate in one year. I went to UNC Chapel Hill. I bet UT Austin would have a similar program. That condenses everything, gives you good practical experience student teaching, but kind of bypasses all the bullshit, baby courses that can be excruciatingly boring and slow moving in education.
You also start out working at a higher rate of pay with a master's degree.
Good luck with everything- Aidan

Chic - of course. People in all professions whine and complain all the time about whatever they perceive is holding them back from being a better teacher/doctor/writer/cop/whatever. But when you work in a public school, your job is to teach whoever walks through the door of your classroom. And wishing the difficult kids away isn't going to make you a better teacher. But actually trying to reach them may have a positive effect on you and the child.