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As an educator, I find myself squarely behind the south end of this northbound jackass called "No Child Left Behind." What people don't realize is that educators didn't design NCLB, politicians did. NCLB rewards schools that succeed by penalizing schools that don't. How is success or failure determined? By standardized tests. What's more, educators don't want to teach to a test, but we (both teachers and administrators) are being forced to, forced to by the politicians and, to a large degree, parents. The politicians have decided that these standardized tests are the only measure of performance worth looking at.

As for fishin's comments on the integrity of teachers and administrators: it shows a definite lack of understanding of how school districts operate. Unless you're self-employed you have a boss. If your boss orders you to do your job differently, then you do your job differently regardless of whether or not it's a better way to do the job (unless your boss's orders are illegal, pose a threat of physical harm, or violate your contract). If you don't, you're fired. Teachers have bosses--administrators. Administrators have bosses--the school board. The school board in turn answers to parents (primarily, because parents are the most likely to vote in school board elections), and so on. School districts aren't choosing to teach to a test, NCLB is forcing them to. If my boss tells me to do my job differently, I do it differently because I want to remain employed just like anyone else. (And let me tell you that most of the directives given to teachers from on high result in less and less time for students.)

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squinney wrote:

Yes, my personal view is clouded... by the best interest of my children.

I would hope so! Wink

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The point being that the teachers are now teaching for the test, which was not happening before it was tied to financial support of the schools. It may go to the integrety of the teachers, but guess what. If their students don't pass this test, they are out of a job. If a certain number of students don't pass, the whole school is put on probation, putting all teachers and administrators at risk.

Integrity is something a person has or doens't have regardless of their employemnt status. The argument that "but it's their job on the line" doesn't hold much water.

And prior to NCLB we had what? Prior to the 1990s teachers that taught whatever they felt like teaching and there was little, if any, accountability. They'd pass their students on to the next grade and then point fingers at each other when it was suddenly discovered that Johnny couldn't read even though he was scheduled to get his diploma within months. Since 1990 35 states had already implemented standrdized tests before NCLB was even dicussed.

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Now, here's where spec. ed. comes in. First, spec. ed. students do not get a high school diploma without passing the coursework required for one. They can walk across the stage at graduation and get a certificate of completion, but it is not treated the same as a diploma.

I have a sister now lives in a nursing home (not far from you). She was diagnosed as psychotic and mentally retarded at the age of 4. She did manage to graduate in 1986 from the same high school as all of my other sisters did though. There is absolutely no distinction between her diploma and theirs. They are identical except for the names printed on them.

She is incapable of reading beyond the 1st grade level. She can not cook or operate any type of vehicle. She wears shoes with velcro closures because she can't tie her own shoes. Yet she went to school for 12 years in special ed classes and graduated with every other kid from town that was the same age.

Special Ed. students may not get diplomas in your town but they do in others.

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The argument that a student, even a spec ed student, shouldn't move on to the next grade just because they can't pass an 8th grade math or writing test, is therefore flawed in the assumption that they should be accomplishing the same things as the regular students.

It's only flawed if the promotions actually mean something different. If a regular student and a special ed. student are both working toward identical diplomas then it isn't flawed at all.

If society wants to carve out a niche for those with disabilities that can't be educated in a traditional setting I'm all for it. Let's split things up and have a non-traditional setting and program of training for them. When (or if) they complete it they'd get a non-traditional diploma to go with it.

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The school with the self contained classroom is held to the same requirements for percentage of students passing the standardized tests as the one with the less handicapped students, or even the school that has no spec ed population at all.

They may but that depends on how the state chose to implement NCLB. As I stated early in this therad, a lot of the blame that people are dumping on NCLB has a whole lot more to do with bad planning at the state and local level than it does with the law itself.

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I don't mind holding public education accountable. Of course I want my children to have the best education. I don't like having the funding for their school, teacher bonuses, or iPod prizes tied to a single standardized testing of the entire school population.

Again, iPods and teacher bonuses aren't in NCLB anywhere. Those are gimmicks someone came up with in your area. They are, IMO, dumb but they also aren't part of NCLB.

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Other valuable teaching gets set aside in order to assure passage of this one test, and the students, teachers and entire school can still lose.

So do we segregate out the smarter kids in the 1st or 2nd grade an provide them with the absolute best education and just ignore the portion of the population that has problems? If schools can provide "above and beyond" for some that's fine - I have absolutely no problem with that. Before they go chasing after that though they had better make sure that they are providing at least the minimum standard of education required to everyone.

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Mills75 wrote:

As an educator, I find myself squarely behind the south end of this northbound jackass called "No Child Left Behind." What people don't realize is that educators didn't design NCLB, politicians did. NCLB rewards schools that succeed by penalizing schools that don't. How is success or failure determined? By standardized tests. What's more, educators don't want to teach to a test, but we (both teachers and administrators) are being forced to, forced to by the politicians and, to a large degree, parents. The politicians have decided that these standardized tests are the only measure of performance worth looking at.

As for fishin's comments on the integrity of teachers and administrators: it shows a definite lack of understanding of how school districts operate. Unless you're self-employed you have a boss. If your boss orders you to do your job differently, then you do your job differently regardless of whether or not it's a better way to do the job (unless your boss's orders are illegal, pose a threat of physical harm, or violate your contract). If you don't, you're fired. Teachers have bosses--administrators. Administrators have bosses--the school board. The school board in turn answers to parents (primarily, because parents are the most likely to vote in school board elections), and so on. School districts aren't choosing to teach to a test, NCLB is forcing them to. If my boss tells me to do my job differently, I do it differently because I want to remain employed just like anyone else. (And let me tell you that most of the directives given to teachers from on high result in less and less time for students.)

I have seen several posts that point out that NCLB wasn't designed by educators. Why should teachers regulate themselves, unlike every other publicly subsidized or regulated industry. Self-regulation is quite rare in the modern regulatory state. The proper incentive structure for teachers should not be designed by teachers; that involves a clear conflict of interest. Would you want industry standards for power plants designed exclusively by power companies?

Regarding cascading accountability between parents, administrators, and principals, that's a weak link. Administrators are only barely accountable to parents--it's not analogous to the private sector. Most school boards are elected, but lower level administrators are not, and elected school board officials often don't have the incentive to totally overhaul the system (let alone ferret out individual teachers). Moreover, parents often don't have the necessary information to evaluate teachers or administrators. Without data that compares different districts (data available through testing) it's very difficult for parents to evaluate the quality of education in their district.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

dys, "Enormous deficit spending?" Don't you know there's a war on? It's costing between four and five billion every month for the American tax-payers; cheap when considered from the perspective of the peace and freedom the Iraqi's now enjoy - while the US infrastructure continues to deteriate, schools and hospitals close, and social programs are reduced.

Why is it that there seems to be mountains of money for illegal and /or illicit wars but screams of righteous indignation when we ask that our money be used to educate our kids & in general to benefit all of the population?

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Such as universal health care for all of our citizens, more money for schools/education, and reduce the children's poverty rate in our country from one of the worst to one of the best. I don't understand any of it, but we must have all those smart folks working in government.

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Mills 75:-

What's the big deal about getting fired?It is the making of many a man.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Such as universal health care for all of our citizens, more money for schools/education, and reduce the children's poverty rate in our country from one of the worst to one of the best. I don't understand any of it, but we must have all those smart folks working in government.

Along that line here is an article that I ran across a couple days ago. It includes a long list of items that should truly be embarassing to all of us:

America by the numbers No. 1?

http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp

No concept lies more firmly embedded in our national character than the notion that the USA is "No. 1," "the greatest." Our broadcast media are, in essence, continuous advertisements for the brand name "America Is No. 1." Any office seeker saying otherwise would be committing political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled "un-American." We're an "empire," ain't we? Sure we are. An empire without a manufacturing base. An empire that must borrow $2 billion a day from its competitors in order to function. Yet the delusion is ineradicable. We're No. 1.

--The United States is 49th in the world in literacy
--The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy ).
--Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day
--Lack of health insurance coverage causes 18,000 unnecessary American deaths a year. (That's six times the number of people killed on 9/11.)

--The U.S. and South Africa are the only two developed countries in the world that do not provide health care for all their citizens". Excuse me, but since when is South Africa a "developed" country? Anyway, that's the company we're keeping.

-----(long list here - Every citizen of this country should have to read this)

No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.
The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion.

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Quote, "No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.
The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion." Sums it up pretty well, Maggs. We have too many ignoramuses in this country; and blind as hell.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote, "No. 1? In most important categories we're not even in the Top 10 anymore. Not even close.
The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but weaponry, consumer spending, debt, and delusion." Sums it up pretty well, Maggs. We have too many ignoramuses in this country; and blind as hell.

To me the saddest part is the miserable excuse for an education that is being shoved down our throats. Education could help overcome all the other problems.

My daughter, who is in college, brought home a classmate's paper in Humanities that she had to critique as part of a joint project. She asked me to read it and tell her what I thought.

What I thought was that the young man who had written the paper should be sent back to the 6th grade.

The tripe that young man had written was appalling. It was impossible to determine the subject of his paper. It was a mish-mash of broken sentences and spelling errors. I would not hire that young man to mow my yard!

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In today's editorial pages of the San Jose Mercury News, four education experts "point to glimmers of success in NCLB." These three experts, John Chubb, chief academic officer at Edison Schools; Robert Linn, professor of education at the University of Colorado; and Kati Haycock, director at Ross Weiner Education Trust. All are claiming that "accountability works." It's evident to me that none have talked to the teachers on the front lines. It's like evaluating from an ivory tower; and being ignorant of why scores seem to improve. It's distressing.

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In today's editorial pages of the San Jose Mercury News, four education experts "point to glimmers of success in NCLB." These three experts, John Chubb, chief academic officer at Edison Schools; Robert Linn, professor of education at the University of Colorado; and Kati Haycock, director at Ross Weiner Education Trust. All are claiming that "accountability works." It's evident to me that none have talked to the teachers on the front lines. It's like evaluating from an ivory tower; and being ignorant of why scores seem to improve. It's distressing.

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In today's editorial pages of the San Jose Mercury News, four education experts "point to glimmers of success in NCLB." These four experts, John Chubb, chief academic officer at Edison Schools; Robert Linn, professor of education at the University of Colorado; and Kati Haycock and Ross Weiner, directors of Education Trust. All are claiming that "accountability works." It's evident to me that none have talked to the teachers on the front lines. It's like evaluating from an ivory tower; and being ignorant of why scores seem to improve. It's distressing.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

In today's editorial pages of the San Jose Mercury News, four education experts "point to glimmers of success in NCLB." These four experts, John Chubb, chief academic officer at Edison Schools; Robert Linn, professor of education at the University of Colorado; and Kati Haycock and Ross Weiner, directors of Education Trust. All are claiming that "accountability works." It's evident to me that none have talked to the teachers on the front lines. It's like evaluating from an ivory tower; and being ignorant of why scores seem to improve. It's distressing.

Most teachers are in favor of increased accountability. What profession doesn't want to expose the incompetent minority amongst their numbers? Teachers also want accurate and reliable data to help them figure out what's working and what's not. These facts, however, are not an endorsement of NCLB. They've wanted this before NCLB, and most don't feel that NCLB actually provides it. NCLB is perceived as (and arguably is) just another unfunded mandate that forces educators to teach to the test at the expense of traditionally important curriculum.

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Cicerone that ivory tower is one thing that always irritated me. How can these "expert" learn & know all by looking at the results of canned tests? It reminds me of some jokester I saw on a TV show a while back who would read a small blurb written by a person and then proceed to tell that person all about his past & future life. Of course he had been fed some details and the rest was just garbage.

IMO these tests are just about the same gibberish. But then I have to admit that I have been against testing of most kinds for years.

The "experts" should be able to look at the results being graduated from our high schools and see that the real answer is teaching not these never-ending tests.

Wouldn't the children's final grades for a school year be more accurate? After all that is the bottom line.

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Maggs, I know exactly which program you are talking about. I saw the fraud in it the first time I watched it, and quit looking. It seems Barnham was right: there's a sucker born every minute.

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Mills 75:-

I was a little surprised that you didn't respond to my post which was a response to your own post.My guess is that you felt my post was trivial and the snide remark of a smarty-pants.If that is the case you couldn't be more wrong.It would be easy to show that all the posts on this thread are trivial in comparison.

You cannot possibly allow yourself to get into a position where you fear to be fired to the extent that you carry out policies which you don't agree with.All sorts of things can happen to a teacher these days which through no fault of their own can get them fired.Being frightened of getting fired to the extent you claim to be;namely carrying out policies which you believe are bad for your own students,is to leave yourself at the mercy of all those things.Obviously,you are then going to conduct yourself in ways which seek to minimise or even exclude the possibility of any of those things happening to you.This cannot but cause you to act in un-natural ways and that can often have an effect which is worse than being fired.A young female hitch-hiker for example would be offered a lift by a man acting naturally.Someone frightened of being fired would pass her by with the thought that she might be an entrapment specialist.There are many other possibilities as you are no doubt aware.Friendly students say.
What seems to have happened here is that you have betrayed your own principles for fear of being fired.If your principles are correct ones,and I have no view on such matters,education being so fraught with difficulties,your own students must suffer the consequences of your fears.This suggests that those principles are merely a matter of cash and status and are to be overthrown when it is convenient.

During the last war those who refused to serve in the concentration camps were posted to the nightmare of the Russian front and there were a large number of men who accepted that fate rather than carry out the orders of their bosses which were self-evidently legal at the time.It is a great pity that the German character is judged on the actions of those who chose the easier option.

There is another consideration too.These threads are about communication between those who take the trouble to read posts and respond to them.They can hardly be about the explication of educational policy in a particular place at a particular time because these matters are too complex for threaders who haven't really got a proper definition of "education".Threaders also have little or no influence on the outcome of the argument you made.Your failure to respond to my post suggests that you only communicate with other threaders on your own terms and that is hardly a premise suitable to the field of education and some might say a position which justifies the politicians,who have to answer for their decisions,
taking charge of the situation.
All I can add is that thank goodness I was taught by priests who have to go to a great deal of trouble to get themselves fired.

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spendius, I saw your question too, but didn't respond for two reasons; 1) you didn't direct the q to me, and 2) I'm not sure it was a fair question. Let me elaborate. It would seem to me you could ask that question to "all" the teachers now working. If all of them worked on their personal "ethics," how many teachers would be left? Not many, I fear. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

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c.i.

Of course you could ask the question to all teachers.It is an unspoken question which is answered by the action of taking your pay from the state.Once you do that you are a state employee and should abide by the conditions the state sets.
But I was more concerned with the principle of a fear of being fired.Lots of people don't have that fear.I know plenty.They often fire themselves and a fair proportion of them are better for it.A teacher ought to be enthusiastic and disagreeing with the educational policies you are working under is likely to reduce enthusiasm and in the end leaving a person as nothing but a time-server and that is not good for students.Teaching is a vocation isn't it.It isn't any old job.

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spendius, Most professions is a vocation, and not just "any old job." Many spend much time and effort to earn their degrees, and not many concern themselves with "ethics" whether they work as teachers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, CEOs or politicians. All I'm saying is that it's impossible to set standards for other professions just because our ethical standards may be higher than theirs. On the other hand, I agree that the ethical standards for most professional workers are set very low. The reality of our world has changed dramatically since our youth of the 60s and 70s. Very few seems to live with high ethical standards. Since I'm not under pressure to "feed my family," those pressures no longer apply to me. When I worked as an accountant, I feel my standards for myself was very high, but it was not within my power to establish my standards to all other accountants. I would not presume to criticise one individual in any profession without giving consideration of the circumstances under which they must work. I include teachers in that group of today.

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spendius: I simply didn't see your initial post. However, the person who will stand firm and wage a war for every principle is most certainly a fool. There's an old question that military commanders will sometimes ask themselves: Is this the hill I want to die on? It helps you prioritize. There are certainly principles most people would die for, much less be fired for. Do you see Doctors quitting en masse when hmos place limits or qualifiers on their professional judgment? Only in the movies and the less well-written TV shows.

Despite how often we romanticize the educated occupations (e.g., the medical, legal, and educational professions), the practitioners of these jobs see them as just that: jobs. In other words, they are the means of their practitioners' economic support. Granted, they tend to be more intellectually stimulating and satisfying than many other occupations, but they're jobs. If I were an independent contractor and someone wanted to hire me to build an ugly or mediocre patio cover, I would be a fool to turn that person down unless the patio cover s/he wanted me to build wouldn't have met code. So why would I, as a teacher, risk being fired or quit to protest asinine directives from the administration when those directives "meet code"? If they want me to "build and ugly porch," then I'm going to "build" the best damn "ugly porch" I can. It's quite simple, when one is hired to teach, he or she is hired to teach what the district mandates (it's in the contract, which is what we agree to when we're hired). If the district mandates that a teacher teaches to a test, then that teacher teaches to the test.

It is, however, interesting how some are so cavalier about the employment status of others. I get that from parents quite a lot--they expect teachers' hearts and souls (not to mention all of their time) to be devoted to their children's educations--risk being fired if that's what it takes to give little Johnnie a good education, but then they're the first to organize campaigns attempting to block teacher salary increases if there's so much as a hint that said increases will increase taxes. Crazy world, ain't it?

That being said, most teachers are enthusiastic about teaching (despite the best efforts of politicians, parents, and administrators to beat that out of us). We stick with it and attempt to do our best given the constraints placed on us. It is telling, however, that teaching has one of the highest burn out rates of any profession with the average teacher staying in the profession only five years (it takes most teachers five-six years just getting the required education to be a teacher!).

I am, however, a little disturbed by your statement that accepting employment precludes disagreement. Would a doctor stifle his disagreement if a patient rejected his/her diagnosis and prescribed treatment? No, and that patient is going to be billed regardless. Would a lawyer hesitate to express his disagreement with an unqualified client's attempts to hinder his or her defense (in private)? No, and that client is is almost certainly going to be billed for the lawyer's time regardless. So why should teachers hesitate to express their disagreement with the many half-baked/half-ass ideas that happen to come down the line?

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