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gravy wrote:

As it is called, it fuels the fire for those who see a program that allows/demands 3rd graders not passing the grade be left (behind) to fend for themselves with outside tutoring with no funding, or 5th graders with disabilities be held (behind), because no fund is to be set aside for helping them along. Not to mention punitive measures for schools having any failing scores in form of truncation of federal funds, and thus leaving all their attending children behind.

Oh please. Get real here. It's name fuels the fire? lol The people complaining about NCLB are primarily from the education extablishment or their cronnies/political buddies who wnat to build their little castles in the sand while they promote their own little social theories and ignore the realities of the world. They cry for regulation of every other business but scream like crazy when someone steps in a looks over their shoulders.

The very report that is the basis of this thread admits that Federal Education funding has increased significantly - much more than it would have if it had continued to progress as it had prior to NCLB.

If a child can't perform at grade level why shouldn't they repeat a grade? Should they just be promoted ot the next grade so they don't get their feelings hurt and then be allowed to fall farther and farther behind? Those social promotions are a large part of what got everyone (including a whole host of Democrats) enganged in fixing education to begin with.

The education establishment had a free ride for better than 40 years and they failed miserably. If they want more public $$ for their pet projects they'd better get their stuff together and manage to provide the basics they are getting paid to provide.

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Very well said, Fishin'. I'm glad somebody "gets it".

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The others got it too JustWonders, they just have
a different opinion.

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We all "get it," because we see the same issue differently. Nothing strange about that! Wink

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cicerone imposter wrote:

We all "get it," because we see the same issue differently. Nothing strange about that!

Agreed. There are probably a few people that don't but I don't think that is the major point of contention.

NCLB isn't perfect by any means. But it's no where near the end of civilization that many make it out to be either. Most of the problems that get pointed out with it have little if anything to do with NCLB itself. The problems are almost all created by lousy implementation by various states.

Within NCLB the states decide who creates the tests, the states administer the tests, the states set the classifications for reporting groups and the states set the pass/fail criteria. Those are just a few areas that people complain about constantly and blame NCLB when NCLB gives the states control over them.

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fishin' wrote:

Oh please. Get real here. It's name fuels the fire? lol The people complaining about NCLB are primarily from the education extablishment or their cronnies/political buddies who wnat to build their little castles in the sand while they promote their own little social theories and ignore the realities of the world. They cry for regulation of every other business but scream like crazy when someone steps in a looks over their shoulders.

Um, generalizing much? ;-)

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The very report that is the basis of this thread admits that Federal Education funding has increased significantly - much more than it would have if it had continued to progress as it had prior to NCLB.

Has the funding done anything, though? If I create a program to provide a new iMac to every child in the public school system, and funding is increased to cover the cost, I can then say look, I increased funding significantly! But that doesn't mean much unless it can be shown that the iMacs actually improved these kids' education. Throwing money at the problem doesn't automatically translate to solving the problem.

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If a child can't perform at grade level why shouldn't they repeat a grade? Should they just be promoted ot the next grade so they don't get their feelings hurt and then be allowed to fall farther and farther behind? Those social promotions are a large part of what got everyone (including a whole host of Democrats) enganged in fixing education to begin with.

They've tried to stop social promotion a few places (Chicago, recently), with rather dismal results. It's not just about feelings, it's about what works -- and what doesn't.

http://www.teacherleaders.org/TLNEWS/TLN011605.html

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The education establishment had a free ride for better than 40 years and they failed miserably. If they want more public $$ for their pet projects they'd better get their stuff together and manage to provide the basics they are getting paid to provide.

I'd agree with that -- but again it's not exactly an argument for NCLB.

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This is probably closest to my own view on the subject of social promotion:

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In a minority report released concurrently, Consortium Steering Committee member Donald Moore argued that both the retention policy and the social promotion policy it replaced are failures. He called for alternatives for improving student achievement in urban schools that are based on research. In particular, he cited high quality early childhood education, preparing elementary school teachers to teach reading more effectively, and consciously spreading the practices of high-achieving inner-city schools to other schools.

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/14_03/chi143.shtml

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sozobe wrote:

Has the funding done anything, though? If I create a program to provide a new iMac to every child in the public school system, and funding is increased to cover the cost, I can then say look, I increased funding significantly! But that doesn't mean much unless it can be shown that the iMacs actually improved these kids' education. Throwing money at the problem doesn't automatically translate to solving the problem.

I think the funding has doen something. The whoel process is a long way from being where anyone could say it's a 100% sucess but that doesn't mean nothing has been done.

To further your iMac analogy - once you made the statement wouldn't you need to know exactly who those children are? You'd gather up a list of schools and the names of kids that attend them and you'd figure out who already has one and who doesn't. You'd order the computers and ship them around while keeping track of who they were given to.

Once you got to a point where 20% of the kids had them you'd still be far from done but would you say your money hadn't done anything?

You have to admit that something like NCLB is a HUGE undertaking. Some areas have made great progress and others have lagged. I don't know about your area but we get yearly reports here of where each school stands in the state as well as how the children in each school are doing on the tests. Those results are already impacting where money is going based on hard empirical data instead of hunches or whoever screams the loudest.

Quote:

If a child can't perform at grade level why shouldn't they repeat a grade? Should they just be promoted ot the next grade so they don't get their feelings hurt and then be allowed to fall farther and farther behind? Those social promotions are a large part of what got everyone (including a whole host of Democrats) enganged in fixing education to begin with.

They've tried to stop social promotion a few places (Chicago, recently), with rather dismal results. It's not just about feelings, it's about what works -- and what doesn't.

http://www.teacherleaders.org/TLNEWS/TLN011605.html[/quote]

I'm not asking for (or calling for) a stop to social promotions per se. There are some children that will never (and should never) graduate from high school and people need to come to that realization.

As an overall goal the schools should be identifying children that are having problems performing at grade level and devising programs for them to address what the particular issues are for that student. Some may just need a fast, intense tutoring session in one specific area. Others may need to be held back in grade. Some may never be able to perform any higher than the grade level they are in.

That doesn't mean they should just get left by the wayside - it means that they should get what they can learn at a pace that can learn it. If it isn't possible for them to learn you don't just give them a diploma and pretend they did anyway. Handing someone a high school diploma so that their self-esteem isn't impinged on demeans the diploma for everyone that worked for and earned it.

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The education establishment had a free ride for better than 40 years and they failed miserably. If they want more public $$ for their pet projects they'd better get their stuff together and manage to provide the basics they are getting paid to provide.

I'd agree with that -- but again it's not exactly an argument for NCLB.[/quote]

Perhaps not. It is reason enough to take what the education establishment says about NCLB with a healthy dose of skepticism though.

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I agree with most of that I think. Where I disagree is what the data shows about NCLB working or not. To me, it's that they have disbursed 20% of the iMacs, and find out that they cause more problems than they solve. The kids use them to play video games instead of doing homework, say, or they aren't exercising as much, they're dissing the rest of their low-tech lessons, and there is no actual progress being made by any objective measurement.

So, do you continue just because, well, you started it, you said you were going to distribute that many iMacs, so by golly by gum you're gonna, or do you take the data and try to figure out if the enterprise is worthwhile? (And adjust if not, as the Chicago no-social-promotion program did.)

The data seem far from unambiguous to me that NCLB is a worthy enterprise -- that it will achieve what it wants to achieve. I don't think I'm part of the educational establishment, and I certainly don't have any particular stake (except for wanting my daughter to get a good education.) Just from what I've read as an interested observer, from a lot of sources, NCLB doesn't impress me at all. I think a lot of things about NCLB are exactly the kind of simplistic, bandaid, instant-gratification "solutions" that we have both decried in discussions about education.

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Interesting link on LNCB> http://www.calpundit.com/archives/002197.html

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Interesting perhaps. But not very enlightened.

"The first has to do with the nature of the program itself. For starters, it mandates that each state has to set standards for student achievement, and by 2014 every single student must meet those standards. Any school with less than 100% success is deemed to be failing. What's more, even in the period between now and 2014, while pass rates are "only" 80 or 90 percent and we're still working our way toward the El Dorado of 100%, there's an absurd concoction of thinly sliced categories mandated by the act, and failure in any one category marks the offending school as a failure. It's pretty obvious that there are a suspiciously large number of ways to fail, and as the years go by the number of "failing" schools will slowly increase to 100%."

99% of his bitch here has nothing to do with the contents of NCLB. His state sets the standards and devises the categories and sub-categories. (NCLB mandates 5 or 6 "reporting categories" but state's set their own test categories.) They also define what is "success" and "failure". Several of his comments conflict with the link HE provided in the middle of his own comments.

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I think they could easily rename this program to "No Day in the Classroom without Billy Pooping his Pants".

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Unfortunately, NCLB is nothing more than another unfunded/underfunded mandate designed to make politicians look good while achieving nothing substantive. It succeeds in nothing more than stretching already thin educational budgets.

Point of clarification: NCLB requires that virtually all students regardless of learning disability pass their state's standardized tests by, if I remember correctly, 2014. Not pass them or be held back a grade, pass them period. There has been little to no extra funding from the federal government for enhancing education of general ed. students much less for the hiring of additional special ed. teachers.

As for cjhsa's comment about "ultra liberal administrators": I've observed or worked for a number of school districts across the country and have yet to meet an "ultra liberal administrator." Most of the administrators I've met are corporate business wannabes. What's more, principals whose students don't maintain satisfactory test scores, or show consistent improvement in the case of at risk schools, are in danger of being fired. That's fine with regard to inept principals, but NCLB doesn't provide the resources for gifted principals to succeed, either.

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I find it interesting the number of people that jump in on NCLB who don't have children in the "system." Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, but perhaps those actually experiencing what is happening, parents and teachers/ administrators, have a better understanding.

Our children attend the wealthiest high school in the county. Daughter came home the other day and said that last year only 1 student in her entire class of several hundred students got a 4 (on a scale of 1 - 4) on the state writing test. So this year, they are offering a prize! Every student that gets a 4 gets an iPod. Wow! isn't that great?

So we talked about it. Are the teachers teaching other things that are on the curriculum? No, they are giving pre-writing test practice sessions so the kids can pass one test a few months from now.

Why? Because their bonus is tied to the kids passing. They get $$$ for having their students pass the test.

Why else? Because the school itself is rewarded financially for having a given percentage of students pass the test.

Why else? Because the state is rewarded with federal funds based on passing this test.

So, while all this emphasis is being placed on passing a writing test and a math test, which btw is BELOW grade level, other objectives for the year are being ignored.

Cubs 8th grade math test last year consisted of what I would place at 6th grade math level. Many of the writing tests I've seen from high schoolers are papers that we adults would have gotten a A for in upper elementary school, but certainly not in Jr. high, let alone high school. But, the kids still pass and are considered on grade level.

Does the passing of a test then mean education has improved? Not hardly. But, we can bribe them with iPods.

Interesting reading concerning Texas education in this article that is out today:

Perry enters No Child fray

"WASHINGTON - Gov. Rick Perry, one of the most stalwart backers of President Bush's No Child Left Behind education policy, said Sunday that he nevertheless backs the Texas education commissioner's challenge to the federal law over standardized testing of special-education students.

Texas exempted nearly 10 times the desired number of students from regular standardized testing, even after its request for a waiver to do so was denied by the U.S. Department of Education, which is led by former Houstonian Margaret Spellings...."

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squinney, Right on target; most of the children are being 'trained' to pass a test below grade level - the basis for bad education for all. LNCB means make them all pass at a level below their abilities.

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squinney wrote:

I find it interesting the number of people that jump in on NCLB who don't have children in the "system." Doesn't mean you can't have an opinion, but perhaps those actually experiencing what is happening, parents and teachers/ administrators, have a better understanding.

And perhaps parents, teachers, administators have their views clouded by their own personal interests (which aren't always the same as the interests of the children). The knife cuts both ways there.

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Yes it does, but if the choice is between the parents or the administrators, I'd pick the parents any ole day.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

squinney, Right on target; most of the children are being 'trained' to pass a test below grade level - the basis for bad education for all. LNCB means make them all pass at a level below their abilities.

WHAT?!? Who is doing this "training"??? I couldn't be those teachers and school administrators with all their integrity and the answers for how to fix everything is it??? Surprised

lol How many tests have you ever passed that were above your ability level c.i.? Finding out if someone's ability level is above the test pass/fail mark is the entire purpose of administering any test.

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Yes, my personal view is clouded... by the best interest of my children.

The point being that the teachers are now teaching for the test, which was not happening before it was tied to financial support of the schools. It may go to the integrety of the teachers, but guess what. If their students don't pass this test, they are out of a job. If a certain number of students don't pass, the whole school is put on probation, putting all teachers and administrators at risk.

Now, here's where spec. ed. comes in. First, spec. ed. students do not get a high school diploma without passing the coursework required for one. They can walk across the stage at graduation and get a certificate of completion, but it is not treated the same as a diploma.

Spec. Ed students can stay in public schools through the age of 21, by law. While other students are learning Trig and Biology, spec. ed. students are learning to balance a checkbook and complete a job application. Worthy teaching for society at large, imo, and certainly beneficial to the student who becomes more independent. The argument that a student, even a spec ed student, shouldn't move on to the next grade just because they can't pass an 8th grade math or writing test, is therefore flawed in the assumption that they should be accomplishing the same things as the regular students.

Now, these same spec. ed students, according to NCLB are supposed to pass grade level tests and that is where the problem comes up. If a given percentage of the school population is spec. ed, then the school cannot ever be 100% compliant.

This becomes more of a problem when certain schools are assigned certain populations. In other words, rather than having a classroom and teacher for each spec. ed. classification in every school, the county combines and transports students to the least restrictive environment based on their handicap / needs. So, a school with a resource classroom, where students only need to be in spec ed for a subject or two is automatically better off than the school that gets assigned the self contained classroom that has a more severe LD population.

The school with the self contained classroom is held to the same requirements for percentage of students passing the standardized tests as the one with the less handicapped students, or even the school that has no spec ed population at all. And, entire schools can be put on probation and eventually shut down based on this. "Good" students can have their parents send them to other schools at tax payer expense based on this flaw.

I don't mind holding public education accountable. Of course I want my children to have the best education. I don't like having the funding for their school, teacher bonuses, or iPod prizes tied to a single standardized testing of the entire school population. Other valuable teaching gets set aside in order to assure passage of this one test, and the students, teachers and entire school can still lose.

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