Back to Leave No Child Behind

I don't know about your teaching circumstances, Aidan. I can tell you about Chicago, Milwaukee and Madison. I can tell you that a group ofstudents in a teacher's class who will not remain seated, who will converse about anything they wish to talk about during a lesson, who will tell a teacher to "shut up", who will, from time to time, threaten a teacher with bodily harm, will not be reached by a regular teacher.

I would love to see what you could or would do in an "innercity upper grade center." I have a feeling that you would be eaten alive.

You're right - you don't know about my teaching circumstances.
I'll give you a little background. I was very lucky in terms of the teachers I had while I was growing up. They were (almost to a man and woman) inspirations to me and extremely affirming of me as a person as well as of me as a student. The only teacher I ever had that I didn't like was my chemistry teacher - and that was probably because I stunk at chemistry (science was and continues to be my weak area). I became a teacher because I had exceptional role models, who treated me with respect and dignity. I try to remember that when I interact with children in any capacity - as a mother, teacher, friend, what have you.

I began teaching when I was 25. I've always taught in public highschools because I find adolescents incredibly stimulating, funny, and just a hoot to be around. I appreciate them and they know it. I've taught in the public highschools of inner-city Philadelphia and Camden, New Jesey. I've taught in Bangor, Maine and in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I have heard things like "shut the hell up and sit down you stupid bitch" too many times to count. I have never been eaten alive by a student. Usually I remain calm, ask them what the problem is, and try to listen. If class is going on and it's not a good time, I ask them to talk with me at lunch. I make it my business to find out what's going on, whether I may have done something consciously or unconsciously that I might need to apologize for, and search for some little scrap of common ground that might allow me and that student to work together as a team. Maybe it's a song we both like or a joke we both think is funny. Most of the time it works. I have found that even the hardest, most determined little SOB's sometimes respond in an incredibly surprising way to someone taking a little interest in them. It's usually a novel experience in his (I've mostly worked with males) life to have someone refusing to disregard them and consign them to the trash heap- and God forbid- feeling some empathy for them in their particular situation.
School is stressful for a lot of kids. I try to remember that and instead of getting mad at them - try to do what I can to make it less so. My classrooms at the beginning of my career were much less controlled than they were after I had some years of experience. But I don't really tolerate chaos anymore. If it's something I can't control - I call security and have the person removed- and then sit down and talk calmly with them later. All I can tell you is it has worked for me.

You are a heroine, Aidan, but are you still teaching?I note that you write UK right now.
I would love to hear about some of your experiences. Can you tell us that the people you taught in the inner cities graduated from High School?

How many?
How well were they reading? Doing Math? Writing?
How did they view their futures? Did any of them belong to gangs?
If so, did the gangbangers graduate?
How many of the inner city female you taught dropped out because of pregnancy?
Were the parents cooperative with you?

I ask these questions because I know many people who have already answered them. The answers are available as statistical evidence.

Chic - I don't consider myself to be a heroine - but I'm confused as to why you're taking such a sarcastic tone. That's something I absolutely hate about talking on the internet - people feel it's okay to be rude because they can't see the other person's face. But I will tell you, I don't respond well to rudeness or sarcasm. I'd like to have this conversation with you, but I don't feel obligated to talk with anyone who is derisive or derogatory to me about what I am telling you have been my experiences. Who are you to judge me or question what I tell you have been my personal observations? Maybe you should check out your tone of voice when you talk to your students. If it's anything like what you're presenting here, they might not respect you because they can tell you don't respect them.

I had signed my contract for another year of teaching when I got the opportunity to come to England for a year or possibly longer. It was an experience I could not pass up - for myself and for my children-and I was given a leave of absence without pay. I fully intend to go back to teaching. I am not teaching here because it is not a financial necessity, and I feel that it is more important for me to spend my time helping my own children adjust and settle. I need to be available to them physically and emotionally, as this move has been quite an upheaval for them. Fortunately, they are both doing well, and I intend to begin applying for jobs for next year. I will let you know then about any experiences I have..

Unfortunately, probably about fifty percent of my students do not graduate. And I'm afraid that number will increase now that NCLB with its testing requirements has been enacted. I have had several female students who have become pregnant. Fortunately, they are able to continue school - there is a center in the school that provides childcare. What has been my experience is that these young women become even more determined to graduate once they have a child to support. I don't have any statistics - just real life anecdotal evidence. Yes, at the school I last worked at we had Black, Latino and Asian gangs that were active. Last year, we had a student die of a heroin overdose, and two students committing suicide in the courtyard/park of our school. I was not working somewhere that was immune to the violence that is endemic in our culture today and yes it could be very discouraging. But I came to believe that I was more important as a person who could teach these young people to trust in someone or something than as a conduit for information that would be useless to them in their lives. I consoled myself with the belief I had that I could be important in that small way if I couldn't help them pull it together enough to graduate.

I have a question - if you already knew these answers- why did you ask me? I hope you were sincerely interested in my response, because I took quite a lot of time with it. It wasn't just a busy-work assignment was it? :wink: (another thing I hate about the internet - those corny little smiles, but I can't bring myself to use LOL and I need you to know I'm smiling). I don't consider myself to be special in any way at all. I know plenty of people who deal with these students as well or better than me. I'm just sad that you apparently haven't had the same kind of good fortune to meet or have seen them in action in your work.

Cyclo - I was walking my dog and had two more thoughts for you.
1) You might want to call the administrative offices of the school system to see if Austin has any kind of lateral entry plan for people who want to teach but don't have a certificate. I know in NC, certain cities like Durham, Greensboro, and Charlotte that were pretty desperate for teachers, had a system in which a person who had a degree in the subject matter (such as history) but no certificate could begin teaching and were given three to five years (something like that) in which to take the pertinent courses to get their certificate. I'm pretty sure the school system would pay the tuition as well. Check into it.
Of course you can also always substitute - but that can be absolutely hellish - it just depends on what you're up for.
2) When I was working in Chapel Hill, the highschool was about a mile from the university. We always had student volunteers (from the education dept., and others) who worked as tutors during and after school. I had one guy who came to my class for an entire semester. It was really kind of inspiring. I had this tough (acting) group of poor black kids and here was this nice, refined, extremely smart white Southern boy coming in to help out. It took a while for them to warm up to him, but pretty soon he had them eating out of his hand. I loved it. Check out some of the highschools in your area. They are usually just waiting for people like you to volunteer, and it would give you a chance to see if it's at all what you want to do..

Okay, now I'll stop bugging you (for real this time) - Aidan

I can remember a time when any student who said "shut up bitch' or even suggested a threat to a teacher would swiftly find himself/herself on the street and out of school. Students who could not read or write, pass the core requisites, or achieve a minimum grade point were held back until they could and most eventually did. And I am talking rough, transient oil patch kids and/or a multi-cultural environment known to be one of the toughest in the state. And this was before the days of school psychologists and Ritalin. The graduation rate was 95+ percent and the kids who received the diplomas were literate and educated and prepared to succeed in college and/or compete with anybody. Teachers were professionals, behaved and dressed the part, and were among the most respected members of the community.

So what happened in the 30-40 years since those days? Teachers unions? Making the kids' self esteem more important than what they actually learned? The ACLU? A general breakdown in the family and society as a whole? What?

Foxfyre - I don't know what happened. I think it's a whole combination of things. When I think about the changes you describe - and I agree it's an accurate depiction of the way things have changed and continue to change-it seems disrespect plays a large role. Internal disrespect that then is communicated outwardly. I think it's a widespread problem that affects more than just the schools at this point - so I don't think the teacher's unions started it. I'm serious, I see instances of it between mature adults every single day- those same adults who wouldn't talk to a teacher rudely, talk to their children and each other rudely all the time. Maybe that's where it's springing from. I'm not trying to be a smart alec - I just hate to politicize every single thing. I think it's divisive and self-defeating.
Believe me, I don't sit quietly and tolerate disrespectful behavior, but when you call the parents and they are obviously not going to be a part of the solution - you have to work out a solution on your own sometimes. Because unless the kid brings a gun to school or commits a felony - you'll be dealing with him or her again the next day - they don't get kicked out anymore. You can try to work with him or against him. I've decided to try to work with him (or her).

But yeah, I'm with you - I wish things were really different too-all over and in a lot of ways.

I honestly think Chic's mantra of school vouchers is the solution. The private schools are not having the problems the public schools are having and they are producing results far superior to the public schools. Why? It isn't funding, teachers salaries, or any of the more common theories of why schools ar failing. Most private schools are paying lower salaries and spend much less per capita than are the public schools.

Even a cursory examination shows that it isn't rocket science. Free from the teachers unions and the coercive reach of the ACLU, the private schools can expel the student who misbehaves or refuses to do the course work. The private school can demand parental involvement as a condition for admittance. and can require a standard of conduct and performance from their staff. The result is a much improved teaching and learning environment with corresponding improved results.

But it costs the parents to send their kids to private school and most can't (or won't) afford it. Give the parent the option to direct public funding to the school s/he wants for his/her kid, however, and many parents will opt for that option. And the extra funding via vouchers will allow many more parents to afford a private education for their kid than would otherwise be able to afford it. And all that money available out there will almost certainly generate new or enlarged private schools eager to cash in on it.

And it pulls money out of the public schools. Yes it does, but if the public schools can't or won't produce equivalent results, they don't deserve the funding. As school funding depends on population, what administrator wants to be out of a job? So maybe, just maybe, the public schools themselves will rise up, chuck or rein in their unions, thumb their noses at the ACLU, and bring their standards up to be comparable to the private schools, including requirements for parental involvement. And the private schools will then have to work even harder to be even better to compete with the public schools. And again the public schools will have to rise to meet that challenge.

Given a modest income, what parent wouldn't then opt for the 'free' education as opposed to expensive tuition if their child would receive a comparable learning environment and education in either? It's a win win situation with no losers other than for those few who just want a pay check and don't give a damn whether kids are being educated or not.

And what of those kids whose parents don't give a damn? I think there will have to be some form of alternate education system for Title I and to help the problem kids get the basics to survive and learn a trade. But we have to get away from the mentality that it is okay to penalize most of the kids in order to accommodate a very few of the disadvantaged or least fortunate.

I also know from my own experience as a sometimes teacher, tutor, etc. etc. etc. that the 'least fortunate' kids are not doomed and can make good choices in their own interest, and, when they know somebody believes they can do it, all children benefit from being challenged to achieve excellence.

NCLB has its flaws and is certainly not the final solution. But it is so much better than what we have had, it is worth it if it accomplishes nothing more than jump starting a corrupt and stagnant educational system.

"If we but consider that the artistic idea is in essence nothing more than a further evolution in the natural process of learning to see--a process which each one of us begins to perform in childhood;and if we remember that in childhood visual imagery is most vivid;then we may gain some idea of the sudden end to all this play of fancy which must follow the child's entrance into school.For school turns the much prized hours of youth to activities and disciplines inimical to art.Deflected thus from his natural course,the child develops his artificial rather than his natural rescources,and it is only when he reaches full maturity that the artist learns to think again in terms of the natural forces and ideas which in his childhood were his happiest possession.How many of us have preserved our inborn desire for expression?In most cases only physical ability has survived,and we are ignorant even as to the means and ends of using it.Into what devious by-ways does will lead when only instinct should direct!"

Adolf Hildebrand.The Problem of Form.1893.

You ought to be grateful that the kids don't burn the schools down.They have to suspend their instinct of self preservation not to.

Somewhere earlier in this thread somebody, Brandy?, commented that kids who participate in fine arts, theater, music, sports, etc. overall do better than those who have no such interests. I think the best schools do offer such electives and encourage kids to participate--some use these as an incentive of privilege that the kids have to earn.

The U.S. railroads are a dim ghost of their former glory. Why? Because at some point they made the error of thinking they were in the railroad business instead of the transportation business. And while they were busy being railroads and thus were not paying attention to what their customers needed and were going to need from them, the trucking, bussing, and independent package delivery industry rose up to dominate the transportation business.

The U.S. schools have made the same mistake I think. They see themselves as being in the business of being schools/cultural centers instead of being in the business of educating children. And thus private schools and home schooling are flourishing and will continue to flourish until the public schools wake up. Form over function is not an effective way to achieve excellence in anything.

BINGO

Several points to be made here:

1.) If you are interested to learn that test scores are rising in the Boston public schools and if you would like to know something about the politics in this system, read

www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_feature/other_stories/multipage/documents/04607575.asp

2.) That example about the railroads forgetting they were in the business of transportation is really simplistic and overlooks:
a.) the development of cars and trucks and the subsequent political clout of the automobile industry;
b.) federal funding of highways on the notion that they are improttant for defense;
c.) public objection to the old railroad barons;
d.) concern over rail riding teens and jungle camps along the rails during the Depression.

Have to sign off now and will attempt to use another computer.

Ah but it does not overlook any of your points in the least Plain. Had the railroads not been so concerned about how to manage the railroads, their unions, their employees, caboose functions, scheduling of shifts, and all the other details of operating a railroad, and had rather looked at what the people needed for the railroads to do, then the railroads would have remained the most efficient, economical, and fastest way to move cargo across the country not to mention the extra benefits of a cleaner environment, less traffic congestion, more efficient commuting systems and assorted other benefits.

Rail riding teens and hobo camps were no more the cause of the demise of railroads any more than unruly teens and the homeless have been the demise of anything.

The lesson should not be lost on the schools. Schools are so concerned with administration, budgets, capital expenditures, bond elections, unions, incurring the ire of the ACLU, political correctness, and other assorted factors, the actual education of the kids too often gets pushed way down on the list. The public schools have too often forgotten that they are in the education business first and if they lose significant market share as a result, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

I was reading the thread on disruptive children in the classroom, and have been participating in the NCLB thread under politics -and in an incredibly sad twist of irony - just received word today that one of my
seventeen year old students had been shot in the head and killed in Durham, NC on Thursday night. I hadn't seen him in a year, because he had dropped out of school and I am in England at the moment.
My reaction is beyond simple sadness. And despite the fact that all signs pointed to this as the likely outcome of his life - I'm so angry that I can't even cry.
My first big tussle with the administration at my school was over this boy. He was young for his grade, had never been retained, though he could barely read and write, and was up for re-eval. I idealistically agreed that it should be done because I thought we were sincerely looking for fresh information that could help us make decisions about how best to help him. His IQ and achievement tests came back without the fifteen point discrepancy that would qualify him as LD and eligible for services. Although his IQ was low enough (70) for a supportive program, his adaptive behavior scale was too high to allow him to qualify. All services were withdrawn - he just didn't qualify I was told. I later recognized this as a pattern - when our special services administrator realized that we would be held accountable under NCLB for the performance of every single SS student, she decided that the affect of their failing score would be more easily diluted in the regular education population of l500 than in the SS population of l50. She began, rather ruthlessly, weeding out those who were least likely to pass, which were unfortunately, exactly those students who most needed the services. This happened to him in ninth grade at the beginning of highschool when he was facing subjects like biology and algebra with fourth grade reading and math levels. He hung in there for a year, I saw him at lunch and after school to try to help him on the side, but he eventually dropped out, got involved with a gang, and was shot point blank in the head and killed on Thursday night.
I know that people who read of him in the newspaper will think "Ahh, just another stupid, violent kid making the wrong choices, getting what he had coming to him. " But I want people to know they would be wrong. I knew him intimately, and he was a sweet, sad, confused boy who wanted to be able to read and write like everyone else and wished his life could be different. To me he was "Peanut" with an incredible smile. wit and charm - who didn't get the help he needed from the adults around him. He's one of the reasons why numbers, statistics, and results from standardized tests don't mean a thing to me.

It is a tragedy Aiden and probably everybody knows at least one case where the system failed somebody. I certainly do. One I am thinking of was a boy, sweet and loving as a child, from a good loving family, but who never learned to read. I discovered it having kids reading scripture in Sunday School class. How did a kid who couldn't read make it to the Tenth grade? I was horrified? At the age of 23 he was tried and convicted for murder and is now serving a life sentence.

How did the kid in your life make it to highschool with a fourth grade reading level Aiden? If the adults around him failed him, that is certainly one of the ways. Passing these kids on who lack the skills to do the next level of coursework iis cruel and wrong and sets them up for failure. And it lets schools and parents and even the kids themselves believe they're doing good enough. The kids are left behind with no visible evidence.

One thing the standarized tests should do is make sure no kid gets passed through the system like that. A highschool diploma should stand for a reasonable amount of education.

As I said, there needs to be provision for those kids who for whatever reason cannot or will not learn at the same pace or level as the 'normal' kids. Maybe this is something we need to lobby our elected officials to consider.

On an anecdotal note, I once worked in a situation in which we had a very important client who critiqued all the work we did and measured it by a particular standard. Sometimes we hit roadblocks or for various reasons the standards were unreasonable difficult or simply impossible to fulfill. Our supervisor didn't believe in impossible however and refused to change the criteria for success to accommodate our problems. So what did we do? We met the standards that we didn't believe we could meet. I've seen kids do that too when somebody believed in them and wouldn't accept less than their best as okay.

So somewhere in all this are answers that do ensure no child will be left behind. We were just leaving them behind while maintaining an illusion of moving them forward before NCLB. We probably still are. But at some point, it has to be done differently or we will be the most uneducated developed country on earth.

Foxfyre wrote:

One thing the standarized tests should do is make sure no kid gets passed through the system like that. A highschool diploma should stand for a reasonable amount of education.

In reply to Aidan's tale of a kid who was passed along BECAUSE of NCLB.
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I posted links to two articles here. Has anyone read them?

When you overlook something obvious, like the role of the automobile industry and its lobbyists in the death of the railroads, it shows me that you should never teach any of the social sciences.

How much freight do you think is hauled across country in automobiles Plain? I've owned a car most of my adult life and have yet to have opportunity to transport a single crate of lettuce. And why the ad hominem attack? We were having a civil discussion here. I for one intend to keep to that tradition on this thread.

The railroads did themselves in, with quite a bit of help from the railroad unions. The rise of the truckin' industry and the development of the Interstate Highway System presented challenges the railroads failed to recognize and address. While the railroads and the railroad unions staunchly upheld their traditional ways of doin' things, things marched right on past 'em.

Exactly Timber. The railroads blamed everything and everybody but themselves for their difficulties. Likewise the public schools are staunchly holding on to their thirty-year tradition of doing things while the private schools and home schoolers blow right past them. And they are blaming everything and everybody but themselves.