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I must beg your pardon, Cyclopichorn. I mispoke. Unlike some who would never, under any circumstances, admit an error in transcription, I must admit that I wrote- "understanding" instead of "misunderstanding". I do hope you will accept my apology.

I really should have enlarged my post with more evidence and commentary.

Mr.Moe. previously quoted,concludes with an opinion, based on his research, that:

"The greatest force behind vouchers is socioeconomic: less advantaged families in low-performing districts want new options for their kids. This is deeply rooted, of profound political importance and will not change. In addition, the ingenuity and dynamism of the supply side response should not be underestimated. Now only will vouchers( assuming they are large enough) call forth a supply of new private schools, but many religious schools will find "nonreligious" modes of participating that could well pass muster with the Court--for example, by removing explicit religious teaching from the classroom or by setting up non profit organizations separate from the religious ones."

We shall see.

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It sure seems the Dems favor damned few choices beyond abortion.

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Cyclop -- I agree with you on vouchers and the total distruction of the public system of education.

This mania for testing is utter nonsense. There is no prescription beyond testing and the testing itself has been revealed to be a fraud. A few folks with entrepreneurial styles were looking for new ways to make money and sold a few Congressmen a bill of goods in the form of tests for competancy. The problem is the manner in which these tests were composed initially. The companies simply hired people without credentials or experience to write these tests. Allegedly, the best test in the nation is the MA test, which was completely overhauled by removing some of the leading teachers in the state from their classrooms for two years while they made a test that made sense.

But, there are still awful tests about and one of them in the MA Licensure Test. I took the general test and the English teaching test. However, I thought the test itself was ridiculous. The question on sonnet forms was so easy that even a person who had never heard the word sonnet could figure out the desired correct answer.

My daughter (graduated from Smith where she was on the Dean's list every other semester) has taken the general test as well as the French and Spanish test. She found the French test particularly obnoxious. The examples she gave me were idiotic. "Simone de Beauvoir was famous because:
1.) She has a long term affair with Jean-Paul Sartre.
2.) She came to America and met Nelson Algren and wrote a book about him.
3.) She wrote one of the early books on feminism.
4.) She was a Marxist."

Right! Like so many "tests," the victor is the person who knows how to take tests.

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I just began the long process of reading this thread from the beginning. As someone who is in demand as a substitute teacher in special needs classrooms, let me say that having seen the process from preschool up, this demand that kids remain in a grade until they catch up is unrealistic.

The special needs nursery school where I often work admits kids who, at age 3, have a vocabulary of seven words. But those words aren't recognizable to people meeting the children for the first time. For example, one little girl who suffers from seizures, says, "t-t-t-t-t" for chips or potato chips.

These kids receive speech, physical and occupational therapy that only the wealthiest of parents could afford. Frankly, they will never catch up.

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Just before Christmas, I subbed for a science teacher who has one "sheltered" section. There are 12 kids in there who represent 7 foreign languages as well as kids who can just scrape by. Seven languages in one room is too many and mixing these kids with those whose only problem is low intelligence is hardly a solution for immigrants being immersed in American culture.

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plainoldme- You attack vouchers and then complain ab9out testing. I will agree that some tests leave a lot to be desired. I ajm convinced that one of the major results desired by the proponents of NCLB is to raise the demand for vouchers. If you read my previous posts on this thread, you will know why vouchers are needed.

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. Even a poorly funded NCLB (and I admit that it's poorly funded) provides, in the very least, a diagnostic tool for parents and school reformers. Why shouldn't we know when a school is underperforming?

First of all, we do know. How? Take the Sunday real estate section, and, follow two or three housing styles through the various towns and suburbs covered by the paper. Where housing prices are highest, schools are strongest.

Second, look at the percentage of kids admitted to four year colleges from a high school and then look at which colleges they are. Also, look at the kids SAT scores.

Third, the various tests are expensive to administer. School is dismissed for part of the day for a week during the main body of the testing period, although there are preliminary tests in writing that take about a day to complete and cause only one day to be lost at the high school level. Either the principal or his designee is in charge of preparing the materials and packing them up to return to the state. Frankly, it takes a team of five to do this. Add their salaries up. Then all of the teachers administer the tests proper. Add their salaries up!

My daughter, who teaches French and Spanish to 7th graders, is upset about losing two weeks class time to these tests.

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I have some questions for the people who are pushing for vouchers.

1) Will there be any limits for their use?
a) District
b) Religious Who monitors these schools?
c) Private Who monitors these schools?
2) Who will pay for the transportation of students?
If the government pays, will there be any limits?
3) Say there are ten school districts in the county with a mixture of public, religious, and private schools.
a) Who is responsible for increasing the building size to meet demand?
b) Who is responsible for recruiting the teachers for the increased demand?
c) Who is responsible for covering the cost of new teachers? Cost of moving, cost of higher rents, and higher cost of living (such as we have in Silicon Valley).
4) Who is responsible for the change in logistics from one school to another? For students? For teachers? From another state?

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Quote:

My daughter, who teaches French and Spanish to 7th graders, is upset about losing two weeks class time to these tests.

My mother, who as I stated earlier is an administrator in a nat'l recognized school district, says that for english and math, whole YEARS are lost spending the entire time teaching to the test.

Vouchers are nothing more than a system for the dismantlement of the public schooling we have enjoyed in America, and for the introduction of religious principles into our children's minds using gov't money.

Cycloptichorn

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chic -- You wrote, "You attack vouchers and then complain about testing," as if there is a problem with logic there. Explain. Also, I'm not aware that I attacked vouchers. I do think that a nation without a public school system -- which I feel is the ultimate goal of NCLB -- would be a very weak nation.

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You then wrote:

I ajm convinced that one of the major results desired by the proponents of NCLB is to raise the demand for vouchers

Well, is this supposed to be a revelation? What do you think a voucher is? Why do you think people should demand them? What do you think would happen in a city, just for example, Akron, Ohio, if all the parents suddenly demanded vouchers? Please think this scenario through.

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Several participants here need to read:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17598

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How many people here have actually taught and does anyone know anything about American educational history?

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Ihave been a teacher and an administrator in public`schools. I thing I know something about them but I am always willing to learn.
First of all, Plainoldme, you come to the conclusion that finances are key in helping children achieve.
I urge you to read the fine account by Timberlandko on this thread. Increased finances have done little or nothing to raise scores.
If you are really curious about this( it seems to be counter-intuitive) go to find the story of the Kansas City School System which was the beneficiary of Millions ofextra dollars over len years because of a federal judge's findings.

The MILLIONS did nothing to raise Achievementg.

If you will read my posts on this thread, you will find that I indict the culture of the schools and the neighborhoods the schools find themselves in as the major culprits in keeping achievementg from rising. If you will read my posts on this thread, you will find that I hold up Asian-American Students as models the rest can follow.

Again, the tests are not perfect. Tests are made to be revised. Note the number of revisions in the SAT TESTS during the last twenty five years.

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cicerone -- Thanks for your questions. They should help some of these folks to do something they're not doing right now and that is to think this situation through. I can see that you and I are on the same page with this one.

It's funny, but if you were to ask someone like chic why the CEO of GM or some firm out in Silicone Valley is paid so much, the answer might be because of the responsibility he bears and the decisions he makes. However, in the classroom, really good teachers must make independent decisions to present their subject matter in the way they know best to best suit the needs of their students. In other words, they take responsibility and make decisions. Now, I bet "civilians" or "lay people" would not presume to tell a CEO how to run his business but they sure can tell a teacher!

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First of all, Plainoldme, you come to the conclusion that finances are key in helping children achieve.

Cough! Excuse me while I spit out the words that were put in my mouth.

BTW, check your grammar.

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chick, It seems to some of us that you are the product of the Kansas City School System. Your grammar and spelling speaks louder than the content of your posts.

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If you will read my posts on this thread, you will find that I indict the culture of the schools and the neighborhoods the schools find themselves in as the major culprits in keeping achievementg from rising.

First, I will read your posts but my computer time is limited and this thread is 20 pages long.

Second, "the neighborhoods the schools find themselves in as major . . ." is, at best, foggy in meaning. You seem to be saying that schools precede neighborhoods when the reverse is true.
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If you will read my posts on this thread, you will find that I hold up Asian-American Students as models the rest can follow

Using Asian-Americans as a model is rather . . . well . . . inappropriate. You're dealing with a cultural construct that doesn't apply to most "white" people. Besides, there are Asian slackers.
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If the article is the one Timber posted on my thread, I've read it. It's a rather poorly written screed that jumps all over the place. In fact, I considered starting two threads about this article. One in which the respondants can only point out what is wrong with it and another in which they can only point out what is right. Intelligently, of course.

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Really? Cicerone? I was once told that nit pickers concerning grammer and spelling were ridiculous. But I will take your comment under advisement. I am sure that you will not object if, in future posts, I correct someone's spelling and refer to you as the source of the admonition.

Now, I must apologize to "plainoldme" I am sorry and did not mean to put words in your mouth. I must have
misunderstood. Will you please explain to me why it is important to look at the newspaper to see the homes and the home prices.'

I may have misunderstood the meaning of your sentence.

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Quote, "Really? Cicerone? I was once told that nit pickers concerning grammer and spelling were ridiculous." Actually, I agree with your statement 100 percent. Just say, the devil made me do it: The temptation was too great.

However, I am waiting for some response to my earlier questions about vouchers.

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plainoldme wrote:

I just began the long process of reading this thread from the beginning. As someone who is in demand as a substitute teacher in special needs classrooms, let me say that having seen the process from preschool up, this demand that kids remain in a grade until they catch up is unrealistic.

The special needs nursery school where I often work admits kids who, at age 3, have a vocabulary of seven words. But those words aren't recognizable to people meeting the children for the first time. For example, one little girl who suffers from seizures, says, "t-t-t-t-t" for chips or potato chips.

These kids receive speech, physical and occupational therapy that only the wealthiest of parents could afford. Frankly, they will never catch up.

I think you've hit the nail on the head Plainoldme. I also tried to read this thread from the beginning but just couldn't make it through all the political bullshit knowing that the reality is that more and more kids are being left behind and are are suffering.

Until this year, which I'm spending on sabbatical in England, I've taught Special - Ed in highschool. I'm not a fan of Bush's by any means, but I'm just going to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that his motives behind NCLB are noble. It's what we'd all like to see, right? No Child should be left behind. But he's given the teachers, schools, and some students an absolutely impossible task. We can't all end up at the same finish line at the same time when we start from different points and don't run at the same speed. It's really pretty simple and not hard to understand. Expecting ESL students ( who have to begin testing after one year in an English-speaking American school) and special needs students (who like you said, will never catch up) to perform at an acceptable level on the exact same test that your daughter who graduated from Smith is taking, is unrealistic.
But let's not even worry about the schools - let's focus on the kids. The kids who do not pass these tests- and are not moved on to the next grade - will not graduate from highschool with a diploma, but more importantly will leave without any practical education. Because while they are having the material from the test crammed down their throats, which they are not learning effectively (because they can't read at grade level- hell, many of these students can't read the test), they are also not learning anything else which might actually be meaningful to them, and would prepare them to do something to support themselves in the working world.
What would be effective, in my opinion, is providing a "catch up" year for children who had reached second grade without the ability to read at grade level or had substandard arithmetic skills. During this year a reading specialist would focus soley on reading, written language, and math skills. If, at this early stage, they had some sort of intensive reinforcement of basic skills, they'd function more successfully in the later grades. If there is a deficit in a student's skills that is not addressed, the gap gets wider every year they are in school. By the time they reach junior high or middle school - it really is almost too late. And for these poor kids who are being tested in highschool now, having had little effective intervention in their earlier school years, it's just not feasible for them to play catch up. I'd like to ask Bush, "How do you expect a student to pass Biology, when s/he can't read?" "How do you expect a student to pass algebra when s/he can't add, subtract, multiply, or divide?"
The answer is not to punish these kids and hold them back- have you ever seen a fifteen year old in seventh grade? I have - it creates so many social and emotional problems for that child-it's a simplistic and cruel solution. The answer is to give them an education that is meaningful to them, it might not look the same as the education of someone bound for college, but it will prepare them for the life that they will lead.
(Sorry about the long post - but these kids have been my life - I hate to see them humiliated - yes humiliated-because they are. They recognize their shortcomings - they've lived with them their entire lives- and now they have tests to remind them of everything they don't know and can't do.)

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aidan, Your opinion makes sense to those of us that have some idea why NCLB does not work and will never work. Teaching kids to pass a test does nothing to help them in later life. The schools need to get back to the three r's, and forget trying to make all children the same. Cookie cutter systems do not work, because children have different skills and abilities. They're not the same and never will be. Not everybody will be good athletes or musicians, and certainly not college bound. Once they realize this simple fact, they need to help with the needs of the children; to help them pursue their interests. I like the German system of helping school children learn skills that will help them find jobs when they graduate from high school. That kind of NCLB will work.

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aidan- You have made some good points. Let's review some of them.

l. We`can't all end up at the same finish line at the same time. You are absolutely correct. Students take a test and there is a median score for the test which will show where they rank.

Example- A fifth grader who has a raw score of 32 correct will achieve a 5.8 score. BY DEFINITION, THE MEDIAN SCORE IS THE ONE WHICH HAS 50% OF THE STUDENTS FALLING BELOW IT.

We will always have half of the student population falling below the median.

I will repeat what I have already said several times.

I would appreciate a rebuttal of my points if they are not correct.

l.No Child Left Behind will not and indeed can not cause ALL children to be superior readers and/or mathmaticians.

2. NCLB may indeed be a method of showing just how problematical the learning of our children can be.

3/More money is not the answer and has been shown to be almost useless in raising achievement.

4. The culture of the home is vital in causing student achievement. Asian Americans, whatever their socio-economic level do very very well in school.

Aidan may be aware that the concept of a catch-up year has been tried again and again. Indeed, in the Chicago Schools, a grade was added after the third grade( a crucial educational point in time) called PZ. This grade, which indeed featured extra reading teachers and extra math enrichment in Chicago was utilized for several years until it was shown to be inefficient.

NCLB MAY INDEED BE THE TECHINQUE WHICH SHOWS THAT OTHER VENUES ARE NEEDED. vOUCHERS MAY INDEED BE THE ANSWER.

I do agree with Cicerone Imposter that we should indeed, as he said,z"forget trying to make all kids the same". A good point.

Yet, in many of our schools there is indeed an educational philosophy working which says that all children are indeed the same.

THE SPECIAL EDUCATION CHILDREN ARE IN REGULAR CLASSES MOST OF THE DAY WHEN THEY SHOULD RECEIVE SPECIAL TRAINING SEPARATE FROM THE REGULAR CLASSES. They are all put together under a law called "mainstreaming". It calls for the "least restrictive environment" and it sounds fine except that the special kids take so much of a teacher's time that the rest are left to shift for themselves.

help children to learn skills that will help them find jobs when they graduate from High School--says Cicerone Imposter--a great idea--one that was in place in Chicago until about 15years ago when the Chicago School System had what were called vocational schools teaching cooking, carpentry, electrical work.

Alas, since many of the students that ended up in those "vocational Schools" were minorities, charges were made that the powers that be were warehousing the children. There were allegations made that the power structure did not want to allow all minorities to go to college but indeed wanted them to take more menial jojbs.

I predict that NCLB will be soon followed by a drive to open more Voucher schools which will, indeed, concentrate on the Three R's and vocational education to a greater extent than the schools do now.

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