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A man and a gender studies professor walk into an elevator...

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 03:52 pm
@Kolyo,
Kolyo wrote:

Sexual assault is violence. When you start talking about underwear, women may wonder what you'll do next.

Some men start by telling jokes, but have a bad reaction if people don't find their jokes funny. Just think of the boys' locker room where a bully starts off with a joke, and then when the weaker boy shows that he doesn't know the correct response, the bully gets more aggressive.

If a woman in the elevator doesn't find an underwear joke funny, she may laugh anyway, out of a fear that this could be a violent man with a weak ego whom she has to appease.


Read what you wrote again... and honestly ask yourself if this makes any sense.

The first problem is the myth that women are at risk of violence. The facts are that women are remarkably safe from strangers. There is a problem of intimate relationship violence... but you don't get that from random men on elevators. It is a fact that men are far more at risk of being a victim of violence than women are.

Convincing women that they are in danger from strangers is not only factually incorrect, it is also perpetuating gender stereotypes of women as vulnerable and in need of protection. These aren't 21st century values... the idea that women were scared souls in constant danger has been around for centuries.

The idea that women are terrified of underwear jokes is insulting to women.

Feminism should be saying that women are strong, confident, capable and equal to men. You seem to be saying that women are easily frightened, vulnerable and scandalized by underwear jokes.

These can't both be true.


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 04:07 pm
@maxdancona,
Just to make it clear, there are all sorts of ways to make society a better place.

- Efforts to ending sexual harrassment in the workplace by setting clear rules, training employees, making reporting harrassment safe for victims... these are all practical ways to address a real problem. I support them all.

- Efforts to ensure that there is equal pay for women by researching salaries and looking at how salary determination can be more fair... also important.

- Taking domestic violence seriously, changing police policies to make sure that reported violence gets a serious response, having a public discussion and changing laws... all perfectly reasonable.

- Protecting women in elevators from hearing underwear jokes. Not so much.

The policies that get my support are fair, practical, recognize that both men and women are human beings, and actually solve a problem.
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 04:26 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

women are remarkably safe from strangers.


Not all of them feel that way.

Quote:

Feminism should be saying that women are strong, confident, capable and equal to men.


Women are not physically as strong as men. Martial arts training can mitigate this problem to a degree, but a smaller person is generally at a disadvantage against a larger one.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 04:35 pm
@Kolyo,
I am raising a young woman who in her early teens already has more confidence than this adult gender studies professor. Teaching women to feel afraid out in public (in spite of the fact that they are actually quite safe statistically) is part of the problem.

I am an engineer, not a fighter. There are lots of people who are physically stronger than I am. As an adult, I deal with this and I never had a need to fight in spite of the fact I am opinionated and don't always keep my mouth shut.

There are real problems in our society. Domestic violence is one of them, and I do talk to my daughter about relationships. Jokes about underwear is not one of them.

Kolyo
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 04:49 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am an engineer, not a fighter. There are lots of people who are physically stronger than I am. As an adult, I deal with this and I never had a need to fight in spite of the fact I am opinionated and don't always keep my mouth shut.


Well, I'm a 6-foot man, and there are some meatheads I hate riding the elevator with. They just have that aggressive look. As a large man, I would be freaked out if these "harmless strangers" approached me on a dark street. I would probably feel worse if they towered over me, too. If I'm in an elevator with them, I'm trying to get from A to B. I don't owe them a conversation.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 06:27 pm
@Kolyo,
I don't really get your point. If you call the authorities to report someone for making you nervous... I would say it is your problem, not theirs. You are an adult. Deal with it!

There have been a number of stories in the US about women (and I think it is always women) calling the police to report people that make them nervous. There is a racial component to the story, but none of the women in the stories thought they were being racist. If some women are taught that any time someone makes them nervous, something must be done... what do you expect will happen?

As a man I was taught that society has no obligation to make me comfortable, I am responsible for myself. I teach my daughter the same thing.

Getting bent out of shape, and demanding an apology from a professional board, over an underwear joke is simply ridiculous.
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 07:15 pm
@maxdancona,
I don't think they should report everyone who makes them nervous.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jun, 2018 07:43 pm
@Kolyo,
Good then. We agree.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jun, 2018 10:54 pm
@neptuneblue,
I'm going to avoid discussing this with Max because my experience with him is pretty much the same as yours; the only thing I can offer regarding the original scenario is that it struck me as a generation thing. I immediately thought of the old department store elevator operators who would announce the departments at every floor.....it would have struck me funny, like a nostalgia bump. However, just because I know, it doesn't mean the other person would know and maybe could be uncomfortable. Even if I was the one making the remark and the other passenger was much younger (male or female) if the other person was uncomfortable I would immediately offer an apology. That wouldn't make me a weak willed person, it would just mean I acknowledged a misunderstanding and honestly didn't intend to offend. The whole situation could have been nipped in the bud if both parties had taken a minute.

But that's just my opinion, growing up near a city where everyone's grandmother or granddad was from a different old country and later working for DOD when 90% + of the workforce was military, ex-military or retired military (meaning they had been drafted from every State in the Union) exposed you to many cultures, many regional differences so it was important to not be easily offended.

My disclaimer is: I meant no offense to Max, I'm not being critical of his views because I refuse to get goat roped into another "oh, but what about"....I simply wanted to mention there is a possibility of a different way of viewing it.

By the way neptune, I am blown away by your patience.....I had to block him long time ago because of that meandering, incoherent desperate need to be the only one in the room with the absolute truth.


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2018 06:18 am
@glitterbag,
That's awfuñly nasty Glitterbag. We are having an interesting discussion on trolling; particularly on what behavior makes someone a troll. Your post is a great example.

Posting on a thread I started to say you don't want to discuss the topic with me is an interesting example of trolling.

To say "I mean no offense" and the make a passive aggressive attack is trolling.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2018 06:45 am
@maxdancona,
What's funny about Glitterbag's post is that she doesn't really agree with Neptutne. Glitterbag implies that the woman could have acted better, she stakes out a middle position without really saying anything substantial.

Of course Glitterbag isn't really here to participate in the discussion, she is here to make an ideologically motivated personal attack.


0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2018 07:30 am
Actually I do agree with Neptune,, I was trying to indicate there may be another take on the elevator situation.. I was trying to avoid another lengthy post after post with you because frankly you exhaust me. (In other words...there might be a third and fourth way to interpret the scenario before the stakes start to rise.)

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jun, 2018 07:45 am
@glitterbag,
You are trolling, Glitterbag. You aren't here to discuss the topic. You are here to be nasty. It is ridiculous. If I "exhaust" then why are you on this thread hurling insults? No one is forcing you to engage with me in any way.

You are upset because I am taking a position that doesn't agree with your ideology. You could engage constructively, you could choose to ignore the discussion... Instead you are choosing to be quite nasty in every post.

What you are doing is trolling.
0 Replies
 
 

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