A man and a gender studies professor walk into an elevator...

The man wasn't fired or got hurt. He was asked to apologize for something he said, in which he refused.

This was a work place incident. They knew each other. It probably wasn't the first time he's said something to make a professor seek out a resolution. Yet you fail to see that his comment should have been restricted.

These morality standards for speech are based on the assumption that women are fragile creatures who are easily damaged and need protection. This is not about equality, it is about some Victorian ideas of feminine purity.

Again, my point is about making a distinction between what is reasonable in feminism and what is frivolous.

I support workplace protections against harassment. The workplace has established hierarchy where authority can be abused. And, the workplace has systems to regulate behavior, both for good and for bad, with economic consequences. While I am at the office, I am with co-workers who are very different than I and who I wouldn't normally be joking with. I act professionally and restrict my speech.

I don't support the idea that people making comments in public spaces (i.e. elevators) get the same protection. People in elevators are peers with no authority over each other with no economic consequences.

I don't accept that jokes, even jokes with sexual innuendo, between peers count as abuse. Human beings (men and women alike) have a sense of humor. Admittedly different people have different ideas about what is funny, but adults should be able to let it slide.

I really don't like the idea that women need to be protected from humor. It makes no sense... women in the real world have a sense of humor. I know women who tell dick jokes. If feminism is about equality, we at least need to set the rules so that men and women are judged equally, rather than assuming that it is only women who need protection from coarse language.

There are real issues to tackle; getting equal pay, and providing a path for more women into tech jobs. Arguing about whether "lingerie" can be said on an elevator is silly.

What is reasonable to you may or may not be reasonable for someone else. You don't get to decide what is funny and appropriate if a comment wasn't directed at you. You're right, it's not about equality, it's about basic human rights to assess that.

I don't support the idea that people get to say whatever they want, whenever they want. There is a moral code to not yell "FIRE" in a crowded room. It isn't economic reasons why that's wrong.

Saying you know women that tell dick jokes is not appropriate. It is not in the same context of the scenario, though it does make me understand why you think that it is if that's the company you keep.

Actually, I do get to decide what is funny and appropriate. That's the whole point of free speech. There are a very few restrictions to free speech, but pretty much I am allowed to say things that you find offensive.

You shouldn't be allowed to take away someone's freedom of speech just because you find it offensive.



I don't really understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that women who tell dick jokes are inferior company to you? Is there a difference between men telling off-color jokes and women telling them? That seems like a double standard.

I am very happy that my daughter is becoming a real woman. She is not a sheltered prudish girl who needs to be protected from words. She doesn't get offended easily, and she has a great sense of humor.

Ask Roseanne Barr about free speech. Sure, you can say it, but there will be consequences for it. In this case, the man was asked to apologize, that's it.

And no, I don't find dick jokes funny.

Different people have different ideas on what is funny.... I am curious; what comedians do you like? Are you really that absolute about it, there aren't even a few dick jokes that you find funny? In a really good dick joke, the penis isn't what is funny. What makes a good joke funny is an exaggeration on real human interactions.

This is a classic from Monty Python, many men and women alike find this hilarious and genius. This is an allusion to the biblical Pontius Pilate in judgement. Can you see the humor here?



This is less of a classic.... but most people find this classic scene from SNL to be quite funny.

Ladies’ lingerie.” It was a lame, outmoded joke — the sort of thing you say in a crowded elevator to alleviate the discomfort of being jammed among strangers, an artifact of the days of fancy department stores with operators announcing the floor stops.

Those two words — the speaker remembers saying “ladies’ lingerie,” a passenger who was offended recalls hearing “women’s lingerie” — have turned into the latest exemplar in the academy of political correctness gone wild.

The episode, which has not been previously reported, occurred last month in San Francisco at the annual meeting of the International Studies Association. Richard Ned Lebow, a professor of political theory at King’s College London and the 2014 recipient of ISA’s distinguished scholar award, made the remark after someone in his elevator called out to ask for floor requests.

Simona Sharoni, professor of women’s and gender studies at Merrimack College in Massachusetts, took offense. As she recounted in a formal complaint lodged less than four hours later, Lebow “said, with a smile on his face, ‘women’s lingerie,’ and all his buddies laughed. After they walked out, the woman standing next to me turned to me and said, ‘I wonder if we should have told them that it is no longer acceptable to make these jokes!’ It took me a while to figure out that this man thought it was funny to make a reference to men shopping for lingerie while attending an academic conference. I am still trying to come to terms with the fact that we froze and didn’t confront him. . . . As a survivor of sexual harassment in the academy, I am quite shaken by this incident.”

Lebow, informed of the complaint, wrote what he said was intended to be a conciliatory response, assuring Sharoni that “I certainly had no desire to insult women or to make you feel uncomfortable” and suggested that Sharoni, born in Romania and raised in Israel, may have “interpreted my remark out of context.”

“Like you, I am strongly opposed to the exploitation, coercion or humiliation of women,” Lebow wrote. “As such evils continue, it seems to me to make sense to direct our attention to real offenses, not those that are imagined or marginal. By making a complaint to ISA that I consider frivolous — and I expect, will be judged this way by the ethics committee — you may be directing time and effort away from the real offenses that trouble us both.”

It turns out that Lebow’s confidence in the outcome was misplaced. Last week, ISA Executive Director Mark Boyer informed Lebow that the disciplinary committee had found his elevator remarks “offensive and inappropriate.” An even “more serious violation,” Boyer said, was “that you chose to reach out to Prof. Sharoni, and termed her complaint ‘frivolous.’ ”

Lebow was thus instructed to issue an “unequivocal apology.” Not surprisingly, he declined. In an email to colleagues, he described the finding as “a horrifying and chilling example of political correctness” that “encourages others to censor their remarks for fear of retribution.”

Sharoni, too, worries that the incident will have a chilling effect, but in the opposite direction, because Lebow’s decision to launch what she called “a public smear campaign directed at me” could deter others from filing complaints.

In an email to me, Sharoni said “political correctness” was nothing more than a “blanket excuse by those who refuse to rethink and change their racist, sexist and homophobic beliefs and practices. From inappropriate jokes in public spaces to unwanted sexual advances and assault, men in positions of power are outraged when they are being held accountable, even if the sanction is as minor as a request for an apology.”

This episode reflects not only a generational and cultural divide but also the unfortunate intersection of two prickly personalities with the bad luck to be stuck in the same elevator. She shouldn’t have leaped to file a grievance; he shouldn’t have added fuel by labeling her charge “frivolous.”

Nonetheless, count me with Lebow. The days of women feeling compelled to stay silent in the face of sexist remarks or conduct are thankfully on the way out. Hear something, say something, by all means.

But for goodness’ sake, let’s maintain some sense of proportion and civility as we figure out how to pick our way through the minefield of modern gender relations. Not every comment that offends was intended that way, and intent matters. Maybe check in with the speaker before going nuclear? Maybe consider that there is a spectrum of offensiveness? That not every stray statement by a 76-year-old man warrants a resort to disciplinary procedures?

Because making a federal case, or even a disciplinary one, over a stray elevator remark is not only, well, frivolous — it’s also counterproductive. Take a culture of eggshell fragility. Pair it with a hypersensitive disciplinary mechanism. What you get is a result that serves only to diminish real, and continuing, instances of truly offensive behavior.

I don't know why you are posting that article, again, that ends up agreeing with me. I see that you have highlighted a few phrases... I think you are pointing out that the ISA board did demand that he make an apology (you could just say so).

He never apologized, and I don't think he faced any consequences either. Many men and women are taking his side.

What's your point?

I don't like dick jokes any more than pussy jokes, regardless of who tells it. It dehumanizes a gender in a pure sexual capacity.

I also think that some women's comedy, in a race to be the best at the bottom of the barrel. Kathy Griffin's stunt with Trump's head chopped off, Rosanne with tweeting racial slurs, Samantha Bee's nasty comment about Ivanka Trump goes beyond shock comedy and is just plain shocking that people would find humor in these.

I would appreciate if you'd leave commenting about your minor child out of a world wide forum discussion. As with all things internet-y, safety should be a #1 concern. Although I'm glad she doesn't getting offended easily, she also has not experienced sexual harassment/assault and I think her great sense of humor would be diminished if she had.

You think you can stalk and harass my child based on information I have written here? I am not that worried.

Did you watch the "Biggus Dickus" video I posted? The joke there is not about dicks, it is about a military dictator who is being ridiculous and is clueless as to why it is funny. Like any good dick joke, or any other joke, the humor is in how people react.

The Schweddy Balls video isn't about the sexual innuendo (although the sexual innuendo is funny). The humor is from the context... they are NPR hosts. Again they are clueless about what they are saying. The joke is really about humans.

Not all dick jokes are funny... but if you exclude all dick jokes just because they are about genitals, you will be missing out on some humor that is not only funny, but has something to say about human nature.

Of course, no one can force you to appreciate dick jokes, or any other kind of humor. But you should recognize that many of them are quite funny to many of us.

Here is another Monty Python classic...



Humor is allowed to cross lines of taste.... and that's why it is such an important part of humanit.

This isn't a dick joke, it is a Nazi joke. It recently came across my facebook feed and it made me laugh. It shows that anything can be funny.

Whoever thumbed down the Grammar Nazi has absolutely no sense of humor

No, I didn't watch any of your videos.

http://stylecaster.com/how-women-handle-sexism/

It’s annoying when men assume they’re smarter on the basis of their Y chromosome.

”
Use the Facts to Fight Back.
“I’m a human geneticist and work in academia, so people are pretty progressive and I don’t generally experience much sexism in the workplace. However, sometimes I’m speaking with authority about a biomedical topic to a male layperson, and he’ll argue with me and refuse to admit he’s wrong until I throw primary research articles at him that he can barely understand. I read this literature for a living. This may not harm my career, but it’s certainly annoying when men assume they’re smarter or more knowledgable simply on the basis of their Y chromosome.” –Catharine, 27, Los Angeles

“
I’ve had to move subway cars more times than I care to remember.

”
Confront the Offender.
“I’ve encountered sexism in so many capacities that I handle each situation differently, and it almost always depends on my level of safety. If I’m being sexually harassed on the street and it’s during the day, I’m more apt to turn around and walk up to the guy and ask him why he thought it was appropriate to yell something in my general direction or smack his lips at me as though I’m a dog. It’s usually met with confusion or even more sexism: More often than not, if I don’t answer his advances or challenge him, he calls me a ‘bitch,’ ‘****,’ or ‘ugly’ anyway. At night, I usually ignore it and get my keys out to make sure the harassment doesn’t turn into something more serious. I’ve had to move subway cars more times than I care to remember because a guy thought staring at me while he touched himself was appropriate behavior. I’m almost always on the defensive when I’m alone, which is an unfortunate truth about being a woman in New York City. And any man who says, ‘But if a woman did [insert harassment here] it would be totally fine,’ doesn’t understand the implicit power dynamic that men still have over women in our society.” –Lauren, 29, New York City

“
I find comfort in social media-fueled movements against sexism.

”
Find Comfort in Community.
“Sexism is, unfortunately, very much a thing—even though that’s pretty unbelievable, since it’s 2016. I think it’s extremely important to bring attention and awareness to it any way that I can—especially since I have a daughter who I would never want to be affected by it. I think media has a lot to do with sexism’s presence and growth, especially when leaders, celebrities, and other people of power have the ability to express extremely discriminatory, derogatory and hurtful comments and actions against women. On a more positive note, I love the fact that social media has the power to bring women together and really give us a larger, stronger voice against sexist men and women alike, and sexist acts in general—especially with movements dominated by awesome and attention-grabbing hashtags like #RedMyLips. I find comfort in these movements, and feel supported by other women who are feeling just like me—that’s the way I deal with it, since it’s a proactive and simple way to express my thoughts and advocate for others.“ –Taylor, 24, West Milford, NJ

Woman on Street
Getty Images

“
He said, ‘Why don’t you just stand there and look pretty?’

”
Vent About it.
“I was photographing my close friends’ wedding and this guy who is supposed to be my friend is also a photographer. I guess he decided he wanted to shoot the groomsmen photos, too, which I was okay with because the more photos for the newlyweds, the better. But during the beginning of the shoot, he looked at me and said, ‘Why don’t you just stand there and look pretty?’ in the most condescending and rude way. And all the groomsmen’s eyes got wide in shock. I told him that was super rude and he just smirked and laughed. I didn’t mention it again because the groom was there and it was his big day, so I’m didn’t want to ruin it for him. I just ranted to my friends after the wedding.” –Tyne, 19, New York City

“
I’ll gladly do the opposite of what men find attractive.

”
Rebel Against Outdated Feminine Stereotypes.
“It kills me when someone implies that I should or shouldn’t do something based on a man’s opinion. I remember when a very well-respected fashion designer told me I should show off my cleavage more because, ‘Don’t you want men to look at you?’ Or the time I told my male friend I would gladly have a flat chest in a second, and he said, ‘Men love breasts—don’t do that’ and I immediately told him I didn’t give a **** what men want, and would gladly do the opposite of what any man finds attractive. So many women say things like this, too, and it makes me want to say, ‘Base your life on something other than a man’s evaluation of your damn appearance!’” –Chloe, 25, New York City

https://mashable.com/2015/09/07/how-to-handle-online-sexism/#2FaSg11thsq1

For Emma Jane, Australian writer and academic, the abuse began in 1998 when she first put her email address on her newspaper columns. The messages started pouring in, criticising her feminist articles and using language she now calls "rapeglish" — graphic, sexualised vitriol.

What Jane went through is an all too common occurrence for women who raise their voices publicly, and especially in the media. Beyond email, the phenomenon has spread to Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, and anywhere conversations take place online.

At a panel in Sydney on Sunday as part of the Festival of Dangerous Ideas, Jane came together with writers Clementine Ford and Laurie Penny to discuss the causes and impact of "cybersexism," and how to attack the problem.

For Penny, the threats began around 2007 when she first began writing more publicly. "Calling it trolling is kind of dismissive," she said. "We should call it abuse, we should call it what it is."

Online sexism comes as a persistent onslaught for Ford. While she couldn't pinpoint an exact moment when it began, she suggested it could really date from the first time she logged online. "It's not that the Internet has created misogyny," Ford explained. "The Internet has provided many, many more avenues for the misogyny that already existed to be expressed."

Laurie Penny points out how many abusive men online have profile pic of them & their young daughter. Yep, I've found this #fodi #cybersexism

How do these women deal with it? The panel described a range of individual and collective responses. Rather than resilience, for example, Penny said she goes for spite. "The only thing that's kept me going sometimes is knowing ... if I stop writing, they win," she explained.

Jane, who is undertaking a study of gendered cyberhate, described a "toolkit of approaches" she had heard about. Some women outsourced the social media "block and delete job" to a trusted friend. Some took periodic breaks from the Internet. While others simply make sure they were dressed and sitting at their desks before they opened Twitter to avoid sitting in their bed at 10 p.m. and having the rape threats appear in such a private space.

Ford said she had tried to develop a thick skin, with a dash of humour. "What I've found has worked has absolutely not been stoicism or silence or just getting on with things, but has been a combination of exposure and also laughing at them," she explained. "It comes back to that Margaret Atwood quote: 'Men are afraid women will laugh at them, and women are afraid men will kill them'."

When she gets abusive emails, she sometimes responds with a picture of Poochie from The Simpsons. "I love the idea of them getting indignant about the fact I didn't read their email properly," she laughed.

The panel agreed that real world consequences for online sexism were both necessary and overdue. We need to show there will be no tolerance for this kind of behaviour, Ford suggested. "If you can track them down, you will track them down and expose them to the world, to their employers," she said. "You will contact their partners, you will contact their schools."

Law enforcement and policy makers need to be educated about the issue. There are laws on the books now in Australia that could be used but are not, Jane explained, partly because the police at the frontline don't know enough. Women are told to just take a break from Twitter, to stop being politically provocative, or to change their profile photo to something less attractive.

The platforms where the abuse takes place also need to step up. "I wouldn't say Twitter is perfect," Ford said, "but Twitter's response to abuse has certainly been a lot better than Facebook's." She pointed to a coordinated effort between Twitter and the National Organization for Women in the U.S., where women who were being abused on the service could have their complaints prioritised. It wasn't perfect — abusers whose accounts were removed could immediately create new ones — but it was one way of chipping away at the problem.

Online abuse needs to be dealt with, because, as the women explained, the consequences could not be more serious. Not only are some online threats flowing offline via doxing, where people's home addresses, phone numbers and other personal details are exposed, but women are being scared out of public discourse and public life.

"I think it's a mistake to think of things as a binary where women are mute or everyone's speaking freely," Jane said. "They're avoiding debates that they know will result in this reign of hate ... and the number one debate these women are avoiding is feminism."

Ford, for her part, is optimistic.

"Yes it does hurt, yes it stings and feels incredibly intrusive ... but it gets easier," she said. "To be able to push through that and add your voice ... it's an incredibly powerful thing."

I think you are trying to troll me, arent you Neptune!

You are posting these random unrelated articles where feminists complain about the ways men disappoint and annoy them to get under my skin.

Sorry it's not working. It's kind of amusing really. I really wish you could at least enjoy the humor.

I'm simply educating you on feminism. Surely a man of your curiosity would be more than welcoming new information and ideas that can help you engage more successfully not only in this thread, but in the world around you. Who knows, you may even enjoy it!

https://work.qz.com/1167257/new-york-times-survey-shows-that-dirty-jokes-are-linked-to-sexual-harassment/

Maybe he makes the comment as you’re filing out of the meeting room, or over chitchat in the coffee area.

“Yeesh, must be that time of the month,” he says. Or: “She should wear that dress more often, damn.”

You laugh nervously, or roll your eyes. It’s clear you’re uncomfortable. Then, like clockwork, he starts to rationalize: “Relax, it was just a joke.”

For the vast majority of American workers, this kind of exchange is all too familiar. But a new poll shows that crude jokes are far from harmless. If a man is making sexist jokes, he’s more likely to be engaging in other forms of harassment, too.

In collaboration with the polling and media company Morning Consult and leading sexual harassment researchers, The New York Times surveyed a nationally representative sample of 615 men who work full time in the US about how they conduct themselves at work.

Mixed in with benign questions about using Facebook at work or commuting by bike were a series of questions about behavior that would qualify as gender-based bias or sexual harassment. Respondents were promised confidentiality so to ensure their responses were as accurate as possible.

Of the men surveyed, nearly one-third said they had done something at work within the past year that would qualify as objectionable behavior or sexual harassment. The most common type of objectionable behavior—which 25% of men said they had done within the past year—was gender harassment, which includes telling crude jokes or stories, or sharing inappropriate videos. Almost one-fifth of the men surveyed said they had told crude jokes or stories at work within the past year. As leading sexual harassment researcher Louise Fitzgerald tells the Times, “Even milder forms of harassment can be extremely damaging if they happen frequently and continue over time.”

In part, that’s because mild forms of harassment do not exist in a vacuum. In the Times survey, men who admitted to telling sexual stories or jokes were about five times more likely to report engaging in other harassing behaviors, too. Moreover, each individual joke adds up over time, creating a work environment where men believe they’re entitled to degrade others and express lewdness without fear of consequence. In other words, when men tell sexist jokes at work, other men are significantly more likely to do the same.

“We find that they won’t do that when there is a presence of a role model who models professional behavior,” John Pryor, an emeritus distinguished psychology professor at Illinois State University who researches workplace harassment, told the Times. “Social norms come into play.”

To those who insist that a joke is just a joke, the impact of lewd comments on workplace culture might seem irrelevant. But the bigger point is that this: A single sexist joke itself does not do major damage to women. We’re not that delicate, and we usually pity such mindless humor.

What hurts women is the reality that any reaction women have to sexist jokes—whether positive or negative—runs the risk of damaging their reputations in the eyes of their colleagues, especially the men who likely control their paychecks and promotions. Feminist writer Rebecca Traister recently explained this double-bind on an episode of NPR’s “Fresh Air,” discussing her response to a friend who’d argued that a dirty joke in the office isn’t really that bad:

“The thing that I keep wanting to stress is that if a guy tells a joke a dirty joke or an offensive joke at a staff meeting, the harm done to a woman who is in that staff meeting, for instance, is not in the joke itself. It’s that her reaction to the joke, her response to it can then contribute to her professional future. Is she going to be like less by her colleagues and her bosses? Is she going to be viewed as a threat because she doesn’t play along? The harm isn’t in the initial offense, the harm is in the accumulated energy that women have to spend navigating this stuff through so many stages of their career.”

Traister also notes that it’s essential that the #MeToo movement focus on not just individual offenses, but on “the bigger picture that is being revealed—which is the large structural, systemic realities of how women’s professional realities are lived, versus how men’s professional realities have been lived.”

So, sure, maybe a crude comment at work is “just a joke.” But this short-sighted interpretation willfully ignores the cumulative effect that those jokes can have on women’s lives and careers. And it proliferates workplace cultures in which women are demeaned and devalued, emboldening men like Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, and Louis CK.