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Immigration - Discussing Non-Partisan Solutions

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:05 pm
Ehbeth clarified it, the one I saw that Francis posted was a spoof, the one I missed wasn't.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:06 pm
The border the US shares with Mexico is 2,000 miles. The Texas/Mexico border is nearly twice that of the Arizona/Mexico border. Then, you have California/Mexico and New Mexico/Mexico borders.

If more than 275,000 are crossing into Arizona alone, per month, why is it unreasonable to imagine a similar monthly number for the remaining three states?

Freeduck is right. Whatever the number, it's A LOT. We need more security on our borders.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:11 pm
From Arizona - Channel 5 - Phoenix

Quote:
Every day as many as 4,000 illegal immigrants cross the border into Arizona, and you pay for it in ways you might not even think.

The 5 i-Team's Chris Hayes broke down the numbers to see just how much of the tab you're picking up.

Every minute, at least one immigrant crosses the border into Arizona.

http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=2537000&nav=DIH7Ssy8

Bear in mind that while Arizona may be getting the largest number of illegal immigrants, Texas, New Mexico, and California are also having this problem. Evenso, the numbers keep changing.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:15 pm
Belated response to Freeduck: yes, you did drag the thread back on track and thank you.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:26 pm
Quote:
Border Hawk Demonstration a Success
Palominas, Arizona (ABP - 5/15/03) -- An unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) designed to spot illegal border crossers and report them to the Border Patrol was used to send live video from the border over the MSNBC cable network last night. The Border Hawk spotted two "Hawkeye" volunteers who were on the border near the San Pedro river in Arizona

http://www.americanpatrol.com/FEATURES/030516-ABP-BDR-HAWK-MSNBC/030516_Feature.html
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:35 pm
I sided with the Border Patrol on this particular Bush policyand until I see a reason not to, I still prettymuch do:

Border Patrol union calls plan 'a slap in the face'

By Joe Cantlupe
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE

January 13, 2004

WASHINGTON - President Bush's proposal to grant temporary legal status to millions of illegal immigrants has many U.S. Border Patrol agents grumbling and bracing for a possible surge in illegal immigration.

"Everybody thinks it's a slap in the face," said T.J. Bonner, a San Diego-based agent and head of the National Border Patrol Council, which represents 10,000 agents.

Bush's plan would create a temporary worker program for undocumented immigrants already in the United States and for people in other countries who have been offered jobs here. Bush said they would not receive special consideration for permanent residence or citizenship.

The Border Patrol union, which doesn't like the proposal, has sent a letter to its members urging them to speak out about it.

"Regardless of how you feel about President Bush, I think most of us would agree that his proposal is a slap in the face to anyone who has ever tried to enforce the immigration laws of the U.S.," wrote John Frecker, a vice president of the National Border Patrol Council. "It implies that the country really wasn't serious about it in the first place, in spite of what you were told about 'the big picture.' "

Border Patrol Agent Bud Tuffly, who has patrolled the desert in Arizona for nearly 20 years, recalled the surge of illegal immigrants who crossed the border in advance of Congress' landmark 1986 amnesty.

"We saw the numbers skyrocket and all this naturally encourages them to come across," said Tuffly, a union representative in Tucson, Ariz. "You have to do your job. It's very demoralizing to do your job. We have rocks thrown at us daily. We had a guy from Yuma who died. Why?"

In announcing the proposal, Bush administration officials said a key factor in accepting foreigners into the program would be whether they already had a job in the United States - or the promise of one if they are living outside the United States.

While some Homeland Security officials privately echoed concerns that the proposal might trigger an influx, the agency's official reaction was more muted.

"It's premature to comment on any proposed legislation concerning immigration reform," said Mario Villarreal, a spokesman for Homeland Security's border enforcement branch.

David A. Martin, a former general counsel for the Immigration and Naturalization Service, said he believes Border Patrol agents "have a legitimate concern" about a possible rush of illegal immigration while the president's plan is being considered.

"The proposal is fraught with perverse incentives," said Martin, a professor at the University of Virginia. "There is an incentive for people to come in and establish some relationship with an employer. And there hasn't been a cutoff date under the president's plan. I can see the concern that the Border Patrol agents have."

In the past, shifts in immigration policy have triggered rushes.

In 1993, then-President Clinton agreed to consider asylum requests of Haitians interdicted at sea. The announcement was followed by a large number of Haitians taking to the sea in leaky, overloaded boats and rafts in hopes of getting asylum interviews.

Later, the Clinton administration responded to the 1998 devastation of Hurricane Mitch in Central America by granting temporary protected status to Hondurans and Nicaraguans who could prove they were living illegally in the United States before the hurricane. While no mass immigration crisis occurred, border agents reported an increase in the number of Central Americans being caught at the border shortly after the hurricane.

In 1986, Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act, which granted amnesty to 2.7 million illegal immigrants and introduced penalties for employers who knowingly hired undocumented workers.

Border agents reported a large surge in illegal crossing in the months leading up to enactment as people sought to get into the United States in time to apply for the amnesty, even though many of their claims were fraudulent.

Although the 1986 act was designed to stem the illegal flow, it didn't work. The estimated illegal population was 6 million then. Today, it is estimated to be between 8 million and 12 million.

Retired Border Patrol Agent Mike Cutler, who has testified repeatedly before Congress about homeland security issues, called Bush's plan "lunacy, crazy, madness, foolish, naive."

"In 1986, we had the first amnesty, it was supposed to be a one-shot deal," Cutler said. "People came out of the shadows."

Deborah Meyers, an analyst with the Migration Policy Institute, said she doesn't expect a significant increase in the population of illegal immigrants.

"The program is very open and very broad - for any willing worker for any willing employer," she said. "I don't think we'll see a lot more illegal immigration. But things still have to be worked out."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20040113-9999_1n13border.html
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 12:43 pm
My post about Americans going to Canada was obviously a spoof...

The one about Arizona wasn't.

Neither the following does :

Quote:
The total illegal immigration which adds to the permanent U.S population has been estimated at 300,000 per year


Source

Quote:
3 million illegals to U.S. this year.
Borders more porous since 9-11, as thousands enter country daily

Source


Quote:
Illegals cross the border multiple times


Source
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 01:02 pm
Francis - your research skills are amazing Smile Thanks.

[size=7]<Now if you could just help me out here and find where Tom Brokaw said a million or so are crossing per month...LOL>[/size]
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:02 pm
This thread was dormant, and then suddenly, a Big Bang.

Just a couple of thoughts, for now, since I don't have much time.

About the numbers:

Border crossing stimates are not a very good measure, since: a) a majority of those trying to cress is stopped; b) many of the crossers are on their nth try. Typically, an illegal who has already a job in the States, goes back once a year to Mexico and gets back to the US in his second try: that makes 2 tries, and not one undocumented alien more, in net terms.
4.5 million Mexicans without papers and 2 million from other nationalities in the same condition is, IMO, a reasonably credible number.


About legal inmigration:

It's somewhat of a hasle. But if you have a job offer, the people who offered you a job move the papers around the US bureaucracy and both have a lot of patience, you can get your work visa in a few months. That's how my brother went to the US (he teaches Flight Safety, in Wichita... eeeek).


About Canada and temporary visas:

It is a known fact here. Canadian and Mexican authorities work together for both agricultural and non-agricultural jobs.
It has worked quite well. I know several people who have become local small enterpreneurs with skills and abilities acquired in Canada while in a temporary worker program.
And a permanent visa is somewhat difficult to get. My friend Cychess had first to show his B.A. title, and then to built a somewhat respectable bank account before being allowed to stablish himself in Vancouver.
I don't think he'd ever finish his thesis were it not for his will to move to Canada.

Security:

I agree with the conservatives that have pointed out that there is a security problem with the present inmigration policy. Security should not be minimized.
Today's inmigration policy emphasizes the search for the illegals who go to the US to work, rather than the fight against terrorist infiltration or the organized crime involved in people traficking, which can actually try to make a deal with terrorists seeking entrance to the USA (a bit like prosecuting the people who buy drugs, instead of prosecuting the criminal organizations that distribute them).
Right now, there are over 6 million persons in the USA of which the American government knows nothing about, except that they're huge quantities. This is certainly not good for security.
But the illegal aliens will not dissapear by decree. Nor they will be less if a 100 feet high steel curtain is built along one of the longest borders in the world (not even if they import Vopos to guard it).
Security and a more open inmigration policy are not contradictory. On the contrary, they come together.
Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge understood this.
President Bush has understood it, too.
I believe that middle-of-the-road voters who have Bush his winning margin agree.
But I'm afraid the hard-core conservatives, and their representatives in Congress don't.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:08 pm
I think we need to have as accurate numbers as are possible and to get a handle on it all soon or we're going to see a lot more of this:

'Minutemen' to Patrol Arizona Border

By LARA JAKES JORDAN
Associated Press Writer

February 21, 2005, 1:14 PM EST

WASHINGTON -- Intent on securing the vulnerable Arizona border from illegal immigrant crossings, U.S. officials are bracing for what they call a potential new threat this spring: the Minutemen.

Nearly 500 volunteers have already joined the Minuteman Project, anointing themselves civilian border patrol agents determined to stop the immigration flow that routinely, and easily, seeps past federal authorities. They plan to patrol a 40-mile stretch of the southeast Arizona border throughout April when the tide of immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border peaks.

"I felt the only way to get something done was to do it yourself," said Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant and decorated Vietnam War veteran who is helping recruit Minutemen across the country.

"We've been repeatedly accused of being people who are taking the law into our own hands," said Gilchrist, 56, of Aliso Viejo, Calif. "That is an outright bogus statement. We are going down there to assist law enforcement."

Officials concede the 370-mile Arizona border is the most porous stretch on the U.S.-Mexico line. Moreover, recent intelligence show that al-Qaida terrorists are likely to enter the country through the Mexico border, James Loy, the deputy secretary of the Homeland Security Department, said last week.

"Several al-Qaida leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico, and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons," Loy said in written testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the U.S. Border Patrol last year, 51 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border. The agency increased the number of agents in the Tucson sector, which has its largest staff, from 1,700 to 2,100 over the last 18 months.

But that number is going to grow to try to plug the remaining holes, said Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert C. Bonner. About 10,000 federal agents now patrol the 2,000-mile southern border, he said.

Officials fear the Minuteman patrols could cause more trouble than they prevent. At least some of the volunteers plan to arm themselves during the 24-hour desert patrols. Many are untrained and have little or no experience in confronting illegal border crossings.

"Any time there are firearms and you're out in the middle of no-man's land in difficult terrain, it's a dangerous setting," said Bonner, whose agency is keeping a close eye on the Minutemen plans.

"The Border Patrol does this every day, and they are qualified and very well-trained to handle the situation," he said. "Ordinary Americans are not. So there's a danger that not just illegal migrants might get hurt, but that American citizens might get hurt in this situation."

Civilian patrols are nothing new along the southern border, where crossing the international line is sometimes as easy as stepping over a few rusty strands of barbed wire. But they usually are limited to small, informal groups, leaving organizers to believe the Minuteman Project is the largest of its kind on the southern border.

It may also prove to be a magnet for what Glenn Spencer, president of the private American Border Patrol, described as camouflage-wearing, weapons-toting hard-liners who might get a little carried away with their assignments.

"How are they going to keep the nutcases out of there? They can't control that," said Spencer, whose 40-volunteer group, based in Hereford, Ariz., has used unmanned aerial vehicles and other high-tech equipment to track and report the number of border crossings for more than two years.

"There's a storm gathering here on the border, and there are conditions ripe for some difficulty," he said.

The border agents agree.

The Minutemen "clearly have every reason to be upset with the federal government for abandoning them," said National Border Patrol Council president T.J. Bonner, no relation to the commissioner.

But "if anything goes wrong, God forbid, someone does injure an agent, this government is going to be turning both barrels on them and come after them with a vengeance," he said.

Gilchrist said the Minutemen are under strict orders to merely identify and follow illegal border crossers and alert federal agents. They should not interact with the immigrants except to offer food, water or medical care. If there's a couple of "bad apples" who turn up in the group, Gilchrist said, they will face prosecution if they step outside the law.

Something dramatic needed to be done to curb the years of crime, property damage and trash dumping caused by the border crossings, Gilchrist said.

"Things are out of control" he said. "And they've been out of control for decades
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-border-minutemen,0,2983091,print.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I think we need to have as accurate numbers as are possible and to get a handle on it all soon or we're going to see a lot more of this:

'Minutemen' to Patrol Arizona Border


I've posted exactly the same article on this thread 11 hours ago - what makes you change your mind now?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:19 pm
Oh sorry Walter. I didn't see it. It just now popped up on my 'alert' list on my search engine. I am surprised nobody commented on it however if it has been on the board all day.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:23 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I am surprised nobody commented on it however if it has been on the board all day.


Well, actually, I wasn't surprised: looking at their website, I think, most of you would like that very much.

As far as I know, it really has been here all the day - at least on my monitor. :wink:
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:54 pm
I saw Walter's link (and article), but I'd already read it while looking for sources on other (ahem) immigration statistics.

I didn't say anything because I'm still wondering if they're going to be allowed to do what they're proposing (guard the border, I guess). I knew things had gotten fairly 'desperate' in Arizona (some say the illegals are bankrupting the state), but I didn't know there was a push to take matters into their own hands.

Interesting.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 02:59 pm
Well no doubt it has been here all day for me too Walter, but I honestly didn't see it. Smile
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 03:09 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I think we need to have as accurate numbers as are possible and to get a handle on it all soon or we're going to see a lot more of this:

'Minutemen' to Patrol Arizona Border


this wil get out of control. people will be hurt and killed on both sides. america is a nation of laws, not vigilantes.

the federal government has favored the positive effect of illegal immigration on business' bottom line while turning a blind eye to the negative impacts of same. i have heard both that legal immigration is expensive and inexpensive. either way, right is right and wrong is wrong.

something that i would like to point out is that the debate typically revolves around illegal immigration from "south of the border". while that does constitute a tremendous piece of the problem, we must also acknowledge that folks from around the world are entering illegally. otherwise it does take on the appearance of ethnic discrimination.

a few pages back j.w. mentioned the national security aspect of the issue. in light of the constant predications of "in a post 9/11 world..." i'm amazed that part of the issue doesn't get more focus.

good for you j.w.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 03:12 pm
JustWonders wrote:
I saw Walter's link (and article), but I'd already read it while looking for sources on other (ahem) immigration statistics.


Wow, you must have been up early today :wink:
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 03:16 pm
Actually I don't fear the Mexican illegals. Okay they make up a disproportionate percentage of our jail and prison populations, a disproportionate percentage of traffic accident involvement, and maybe midnight bar brawls, but what criminal element comes in are usually of the pretty non violent variety and are more of a nuisance than a personal danger to the citizenry. (I hasten to add that despite such negatives, most Mexican illegals are law abiding or at least stay out of trouble.)

But those drones up there--can they differentiate between a Mexican carpenter and a Middle Eastern terrorist? That's my primary worry.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 03:20 pm
Walter - actually I came across their (the Minutemen) website. Nah, I didn't volunteer LOL.

Foxy - exactly. There were two Iraqis stopped and detained at the Cali border early this month. They had Egyptian passports with assumed names. Not saying they're terrorists (they're in jail in Tijuana), but the borders are way too porous for our own good.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Feb, 2005 03:35 pm
Quote:
Mexico people smuggling ignores US security fears17 Feb 2005 22:09:04 GMT

Source: Reuters

By Tim Gaynor

MEXICALI, Mexico, Feb 17 (Reuters) - If al Qaeda militants tried to sneak across the Mexican border into the United States, as the CIA fears, they would have little or no trouble finding someone to guide them past U.S. security.

U.S. officials say Mexican traffickers are increasingly smuggling people from some countries that Washington says are state sponsors of terrorism and one smuggler said he would take anyone, even Osama bin Laden, for a price.

"Just as long as he paid me, I'd take him. I'd take whoever," said seasoned immigrant trafficker Mario sitting in his car in the desert near Mexicali, just across from California.

U.S. officials have never announced the capture of terrorism suspects on the border despite concerns that the Mexican frontier is the United States' soft underbelly in its war on terrorism.

But more than a million illegal immigrants -- nearly all from Mexico and Central America -- were caught crossing the border last year and many more get through in a flow of people that gives U.S. intelligence officials sleepless nights.

Officials worry that illegal immigrants from outside Latin America, from Iraq to Russia and Lebanon, are using smugglers' routes, increasing fears that militants planning attacks against the United States could be among them.

Mexicans on the border say people smugglers have few qualms about who they take across the border and rarely check the backgrounds of their clients.

The deputy secretary of homeland security, James Loy, said in written testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee on Wednesday that recent information "strongly suggests" al Qaeda has considered infiltrating the United States through the Mexican border.

Loy said, however, there was no conclusive evidence that al Qaeda had penetrated the 2,000-mile (3,200-km) border.

"It's an emerging threat ... We are arresting citizens from pretty much every country in the world who cross illegally, including some (countries) on the terrorism watch list," Michael Unzueta, special agent in charge of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in San Diego said by telephone.

Experts say around 7,000 people who were not from either Mexico or Central America were detained on the border last year, although the number who get through is anybody's guess.

Moves to tighten security under the Department of Homeland Security in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks have not ended the trade, only driven up the rewards, say traffickers like Mario, who declined to give his surname.

"I charge Mexicans $1,500 to take them to go across the border. I'd charge an Arab $2,500-$3,000 as the risk is higher," said Mario, a 10-year veteran of the trade. "You'd get more time in jail if you're caught."

'DIRTY BOMB' SCARE

A people smuggler in Mexicali caused a 'dirty bomb' false alarm in Boston last month by making a hoax call to police to take revenge on Chinese immigrants who did not pay him.

ICE says some trafficking is carried out by small "mom and pop" outfits working south of the border, while others involve criminal networks stretching across continents.

Two Iraqis were arrested in Tijuana last month trying to cross the border. They were believed to have no terrorism link but the case highlighted how Mexico was being used by immigrants from across the world.

Last year, ICE agents arrested five men in San Diego who smuggled citizens from Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania and Poland into southern California through Tijuana.

A year earlier, a Tijuana restaurant owner of Lebanese descent, Salim Boughader, was jailed in San Diego for smuggling more than 100 Lebanese nationals into the United States through the Mexican border city.

Unzueta said some third-country nationals flew into Mexico City airport on valid visas and were then smuggled into the United States illegally. Others came by land from Central American nations to the south.

The trade is facilitated by corrupt Mexican officials selling fake visas and Mexican travel documents.

"It is no more difficult since 9/11 than before. You just need to know the right time and place to cross," Mario said. "That's the hard part."
Source
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