Immigration - Discussing Non-Partisan Solutions

An aside--

My area (SE GA) has experienced a massive influx of Mexicans. They are doing back-breaking manual labor in the fields, bringing in the Vidalia Onion crop. No one else will do this work.

Cottage industries have sprung up to house them cheaply, feed them better Mexican food, service them in their language, teach their children, help them call home and send money home... They have changed the social landscape, and I think contributed heavily here.

I think in many cases, they aren't taking jobs that someone else wants. I think they're taking jobs no one else will do--and their presence is creating more jobs for locals, and distributing some new greenbacks. I guess the local hospital may eat more indigent care--but I think they net us an overall profit.

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That's interesting, Lash. What sorts of wages to they receive for this work?

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I wonder though, Lash, if all that could not be accomplished with temporary work visas. The onion producers could advertise for the workers they need in Mexico, make sure all are documented who come in, provide transportation and, as you mention, make sure they have reasonable accommodations, get the work done, and transport them home again with money in their pocket and an invitation to return for the next harvest.

Green cards of course can be issued to those who have work year round.

As you and FB have both pointed out, these are hard working people who not only get the work done but provide employers with a pleasant, non-complaining, less demanding work force grateful for work instead of 'demanding rights' etc.

The primary issues for me is twofold:

1) Expecting U.S. citizens to work at whatever work is available when such citizens are availing themselves of government charity and are able to work.

2) Knowing who is in this country and why they are here and being able to exercise control over that.

This doesn't seem to be too much to ask.

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Hey.

I'm fine with temporary work visas.

I don't approve of illegals.

But, many of them--after coming temporarily for years--decided their children need stability--so they bring the family, instead of jerking them in and out of school. I welcome them making that choice--if they do it legally.

msolga-- They are paid about $9.--$12. an hour. They are transported and many employers have small (really awful if you ask me) grouped apts for them to live--most are very cheap--some free.

They bought old school buses--and many who live in these "communities" are driven all over the place. Wal Mart is Little Mexico in Sundays...

Quite a lot of longtimers have amassed some money, acquired property, and have assimilated.

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hi guys. in case you're wondering, i'm not neglecting the thread. i've been reading along and watching the developing discussion.

here's the points that i see as standing out;

illegal immigration is not good.

the cheap labor that it brings is is good.

and so far, it is okay to overlook a serious breaking of the law to aquire cheap labor.

okay. but let us put that aspect aside for a moment and look some of the other related issues, such as national security and the constitutional affects.

very good. carry on. :wink:

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(The majority of the people I have dealt with--are employed through the DOL--and they are legal. Still work cheap--but not the UNGODLY cheap, underground wages and lifestyle.)

(It is NOT OK to overlook the law to get cheap labor in thi vector.

I imagine an illegal is paid $3. or so an hour, and treated like an animal.)

Carry on...

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There was a time when illegals were paid substandard wages, but these days illegals have virtually the same rights and benefits as legals including minimum wage, social security, workers compensation, disability benefits (if offered other employees), hospitalization (if offered other employees), unemployment compensation, and union scale if required on the jobsite.

And while I appreciate the nerve, contributions, and work ethic of many illegals, you have to think there is some wrong with this scenario.

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Well, how can ILLEGALS "virtually the same rights and benefits as legals"?

Especially e.g. such as social security, workers compension etc, which are administered by official agencies/departments?

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A very good question Walter, but that's the way it is in the U.S.

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Good grief! Tell me they haven't done this!!!

How can this happen with NO MENTION--NO REFERENDUM!!!

Fox--this was preliminary. I know we avoided a stupid friggin law giving illegal immigrants legal Driver's Licenses... Do you have a link about the passage of this puke?

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Well you can't work in the U.S. without a social security number and, in my current career, I see lots and lots of payroll records and all the workers, documented and undocumented, have social security numbers and are having the requistite payroll taxes withheld.. Can you imagine some of our liberal judges ruling that people who are paying into the system would not be able to collect from the system? The disability benefits are a given as is unemployment insurance. If citizens get it, illegals get it.

In my most recent former career, I was a licensed adjuster (this is as recent as a year ago July) and I handled a lot of work comp. Dealing with employers, injured workers, attorneys, and judges, my best estimate is that 25 to 30% of all work comp claims I handled were paid to undocumented workers and the checks were sometimes mailed to local addresses and sometimes were mailed to Mexico.

There was one case where an undocumented man had a falling out with his landlady, broke into her house, trashed the place, stole a bunch of stuff, tied up her little dog in the bathtub, doused it with gasoline and set it on fire. Well this creep was apprehended and sentenced to prison, I think for a year--can't remember the exact time but that would be close. Meanwhile he had a work comp claim pending and sure enough the judge ordered it to be paid. So he collected workers compensation while in jail.

Currently our state legislature is in session and at some point there was a bill presented dealing with drivers' licenses for illegals. (I'm not sure whether it made it out of committee though.)

There simply has to be a better way.

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Well, I can understand, why judges (have to) rule it such.

The logical follower up should be, to make the staying of those people somehow legal - give them a temporarily visum, or similar.

I really didn't think of such a situation, since I was always comparing it to European standards: either you are legally here, and then get paid legally, get your benefits etc legally or you are illegal, and those who employ you are criminals and get fined.

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Lash wrote:

(The majority of the people I have dealt with--are employed through the DOL--and they are legal. Still work cheap--but not the UNGODLY cheap, underground wages and lifestyle.)

(It is NOT OK to overlook the law to get cheap labor in thi vector.

I imagine an illegal is paid $3. or so an hour, and treated like an animal.)

Carry on...

Sounds like the "illegals" are an essential cog in the wheel of the economy, Lash. Surely they should have some rights & recognition for the function they perform?

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No, olga. They are NOT necessary. They need to be deported and the criminals who hire them should lose their businesses.

The recognition they deserve is a jail cell or a fast ticket home.

They are undercutting the honest people, who come here legally.

The legal workers are doing the work just fine--above board.

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Lash wrote:

No, olga. They are NOT necessary. They need to be deported and the criminals who hire them should lose their businesses.

The recognition they deserve is a jail cell or a fast ticket home.

They are undercutting the honest people, who come here legally.

The legal workers are doing the work just fine--above board.

With the current level of people who don't work, and the current # of people who don't want to work and are getting welfare, we should at least put them to work in these jobs that the illegals do. If you want something then earn it.

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But the "illegals" wouldn't have those jobs if the unemployed were prepared to do them.

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bookmark

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It seems like the temporary work visa program would be a good start. I haven't seen anyone mention yet that the reason that many are here illegally is because it costs several thousand dollars to get here legally. It seems likely to me that someone who had that kind of money doesn't have the same incentive to come here as those who don't.

So, I guess I'm advocating an overhaul. We need to recognize that in the case of workers who contribute to the economy by working instead of by spending, we shouldn't require significant amounts of money in order for them to legally immigrate.

Still haven't read all of foxfyre's links, so I probably will have more to add later.

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What several thousand dollars? It is true that there was a time a person needed to have either a firm offer of a job or a respectable sponsor to be admitted legal immigration privileges. But many of these people arrived with absolutely nothing. Conversely, many Mexican nationals have been injured, abused, misused, and/or killed by actions of the coyotes who sometimes charge exhorbitant sums to smuggle somebody illegally into the U.S.

Back then our church in Perryton TX sponsored a Cuban familiy. Juan was a political refugee fresh out of Castro's prison where he had part of a gangrenous foot amputated with an ax sans benefit of any anesthesia or pain reliever. We paid for transportation for him and his family (wife and two kids), arranged for a prosthesis for his foot, gave him a job as church janitor and provided the initial rent and furnishings for a rental house near the church. The pastor spoke some French and I (on staff at the time) spoke some very bad New Mexico street Spanish but we managed to communicate and help as we could as the entire family started learning English.

Within six months, the kids were fluent in English and mom and dad were getting by quite nicely. Juan went on to a professional career; the wife became certified to teach kindergarten. The entire family became naturalized citizens.

This was true later when I headed an agency that, among other things, ran citizenship and English-as-a-second language classes. Most of the people in those classes arrived here with nothing.

My brother-in-law's parents had escaped Mussolini's Italy and were subsequently fortunate enough to be included in the quota for emigration to the United States, sponsored by an elderly uncle who had arrived some years before.

Then there were rules for sure. You had to be admitted legally, and you had to be able to take care of yourself or somebody had to affirm that s/he would take care of you until you could. It was excpected that immigrants would learn English and take their oath of allegiance in English. The immigrants coming in that way were no drain on social resources and in fact quickly made their significant positive contribution to society.

This is what I wish for us to get back to: temporary work visas for those who are needed here to work; reasonable standards of self sufficiency for those who wish to stay here permanently. I don't think that is unreasonable.

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Seasonal farm workers can get 8 month visas to Canada (trying to find Canadian info link)

Here's some coverage in a Barbados paper about the program

Quote:

New job opportunities being created in green houses
Web Posted - Thu Feb 03 2005
By Regina Selman

A number of business challenges facing the Agricultural Sector in Canada have contributed to the decline in job opportunities under the Canadian Farm Labour Programme. These challenges have lead to the sale or closure of some farms there, coupled with the mechanisation of tobacco farms and the reduction in quotas by the Tobacco Board.

Minister of Labour and Social Security, Rawle Eastmond, however was able to report that the number of participants in the programme during the period 2003-2004 remained relatively stable. In 2004, 428 workers were placed on the programme, 403 of these being male and 25 female. In comparison, there were 427 workers placed in 2003, 407 males and 20 females.

The Ministry now welcomes, with open arms, the new job opportunities being created in green houses for Barbadian workers. In 2004, the Minister indicated that Mastron Enterprises Ltd, a green-house operation in Leamington, took 54 workers. This has been the largest number of persons recruited by a single employer in 2004, he added. He further disclosed that 27 job offers have already been received for 2005, 20 of whom have been specifically requested from among those participating in the 2004 programme.

The Minister then took the opportunity to welcome all those workers who by their positive work ethic and dedication to duty had been able to impress their employers so much, that they were able to secure requests for another year. He expressed his hope that their success would serve as a motivator for new recruits.

The Minister revealed the above information as he addressed participants in the Canadian Farm Labour Programme yesterday morning at The Dining Club, Manor Lodge in St. Michael. Amongst those gathered was the Chief Labour Officer Edla Lowe, various Liaison Officers, members from the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and also from the National Employment Bureau.

The Ministry is doing all that lies within its power to find employment opportunities for Barbadians of working age, according to its head. The Ministry has gained entry into the Hotel Programmes both in Cana-da and the USA, he revealed and he has even had some success in placing workers on cruise liners and in the grooms and exercise riders programmes in Canada.

He, therefore, urged participants to continue to take positive steps to improve their behaviour and personal appearance when conducting business with our local National Employment Bureau and also in Canada, while stating that he wanted this positive behaviour towards work and personal appearance to become normative, as workers strive for excellence in all that they do.

link

and some info from an Australian site about the Canadian program

Quote:

Canada: Guest Workers

Many Mexicans urge the US to develop a seasonal worker program like that in place with Canada. The Canadian program is based on a government-to-government memo of understanding.

Canadian farm employers initiate the process of importing Mexican workers by placing an order which specifies labor needs, wages paid, etc with Human Resources and Development Canada at least eight weeks before workers are needed. These job orders must offer at least 40 hours of work per six-day week for at least six weeks, free housing and meals or cooking facilities, and the minimum or prevailing wage, whichever is higher.

Canadian workers are sought to fill these job orders. If none are found, then three to four weeks before the employer's specified need date, the employer's request for foreign workers is approved by HRDC, and the farm employer sends the order to a private organization, "Farms" in Ontario and "Ferme" in Quebec, which charges the farm employer a fee for notifying Mexican officials in Canada and Mexico about the vacant jobs. The Mexican Ministry of Labour recruits workers, and then the workers are processed at the Canadian embassy in Mexico, receiving a letter of introduction to enter Canada.

Employers advance the cost of round-trip transportation between Mexico City and Canada, and most recoup about a third of the cost in deductions from wages. Employers may also deduct from worker pay the cost of health insurance payments made to the Mexican insurance company that provides coverage, as well as up to C$6.50 a day for meals. Four percent of worker pay, up to C$425, is deducted to cover the costs of administering the program.

There is no quota on the number of foreign farm workers who can work in Canada. The program is small but expanding; 4,908 Mexican workers were admitted in 1994; 4,886 in 1995; 5,215 in 1996; and an estimated 5,500 in 1997.

link

Weird that I can't find Canadian coverage online right now, as it's been all over the radio that the first workers of the year have just arrived in Leamington.

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Immigration - Discussing Non-Partisan Solutions

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