9
   

What rules would You set for civil behavior?

 
 
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 08:15 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This thread was a failure

Well, the thread certainly fails because the title answers its own question.

"What rules would you set for civil behavior," you ask.

And the answer is: That behavior should be civil. Kind of a no-brainer there.
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 09:46 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
You are the person who is claiming that someone was shot in the face with a rubber bullet.

Yeah, they were.
Quote:
The fact that they opened fire is evidence that they felt threatened enough to open fire.

No it's not. There is the report of Mohammed Tamimi being shot in the face by the IDF, but there is no report of IDF soldiers being threatened. Like I said before, you've made a rule in your mind that if the IDF uses force, then they had to have felt threatened. But no report of that. Hmmm . . .
Quote:

No. Completely unrelated events are completely unrelated.

'Fraid not. The video shows you that, contrary to that rule you made up concerning the IDF not using violent force unless threatened, the IDF is clearly shown using violent force against a bound and blindfolded man. Are you going to characterize the IDF as the kind of people who are threatened by bound and blindfolded people? I don't think so.
Quote:
I'll certainly take something seriously if it is not a fake.

The kid who was shot in the face was not faking it. The man in the video who was shot while bound and blindfolded was not fake.
Quote:
But even if some of these examples turn out not to be Palestinian fakes, if the examples are completely unrelated to the event that we are talking about, then it is hard to see what the point is.

I've already told you that it destroys your default position that the IDF doesn't use force unless threatened. Your failure to provide an account from any news source that proves that the IDF was threatened before shooting the kid in the face is the end of your point.
Quote:
I expect that peaceful protests are legal,

I expect so, too.
Quote:
but that soldiers will use force to protect themselves if they feel threatened.

And as we've now seen, even when they don't feel threatened.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 11:34 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
No it's not.

That is incorrect. The fact that they opened fire is evidence that they felt threatened enough to open fire.


Glennn wrote:
There is the report of Mohammed Tamimi being shot in the face by the IDF, but there is no report of IDF soldiers being threatened.

The fact that they opened fire is an indication that they felt that there was a threat.


Glennn wrote:
Like I said before, you've made a rule in your mind that if the IDF uses force, then they had to have felt threatened.

That is why security forces fire on people. Because they feel that there is a threat.


Glennn wrote:
But no report of that. Hmmm . . .

You've reported that they opened fire. That is a solid indication that they felt threatened enough to open fire.


Glennn wrote:
'Fraid not.

No. Unrelated events are unrelated.


Glennn wrote:
The video shows you that, contrary to that rule you made up concerning the IDF not using violent force unless threatened, the IDF is clearly shown using violent force against a bound and blindfolded man. Are you going to characterize the IDF as the kind of people who are threatened by bound and blindfolded people? I don't think so.

I'm going to characterize it as a completely unrelated event to a situation where security forces open fire because they feel that there is a threat.


Glennn wrote:
The kid who was shot in the face was not faking it. The man in the video who was shot while bound and blindfolded was not fake.

Perhaps.


Glennn wrote:
I've already told you that it destroys your default position that the IDF doesn't use force unless threatened.

But you are wrong. Unrelated events have no bearing on my position.


Glennn wrote:
Your failure to provide an account from any news source that proves that the IDF was threatened before shooting the kid in the face is the end of your point.

It is a given that security forces fire on people because they perceive a threat. That's how it works.


Glennn wrote:
And as we've now seen, even when they don't feel threatened.

That is a completely unrelated event.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 11:56 pm
@Glennn,
I'm guessing Oral isn't old enough to remember what actually happened at Kent State. Wow, I wonder what it must be like to be so totally cocooned.....but I don't wonder very long, sadly I deal in facts and information analysis. Now sure living in la la land would suit me.
layman
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 12:01 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

I'm guessing Oral isn't old enough to remember what actually happened at Kent State. Wow, I wonder what it must be like to be so totally cocooned.....but I don't wonder very long, sadly I deal in facts and information analysis. Now sure living in la la land would suit me.


Kent State learned me one thing. Every bastard in the National Guard is a cold-blooded killer, sho nuff.
roger
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 12:46 am
@layman,
Actually, a bunch of scared little boys in the National Guard to avoid the draft. Best thing to do is make them even more scared. That, and assume they hadn't been issued ammunition.
layman
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 01:37 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

Actually, a bunch of scared little boys in the National Guard to avoid the draft. Best thing to do is make them even more scared. That, and assume they hadn't been issued ammunition.


There ya go again, Rog, gettin plumb the **** off the narrative, eh? When will you ever learn to read the script, I ax ya?

Next thing ya know, you'll be denyin the stone-cold fact that every member of the IDF tortures and eats Palestinian children. They're jews, after all, caincha see?

Aint that right, Glenn?
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 01:43 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
- Who should be allowed to post an dissenting opinion on which thread?
Everyone. Without dissent, I would have no one to debate with.


Quote:
- In what circumstances is attacking the reasoning behind someone's argument acceptable?
It's okay to attack the reasoning of someone's argument. That is not the same as attacking the person. It may also prove to be helpful and insightful to provide your reason for attacking the other person's reasoning.


Quote:
- In what circumstances is attacking someone's intelligence or worth as a human being acceptable?
That shouldn't happen. If it were to happen to you, I would suggest ignoring that person and move on.


Quote:
- Who decides which opinions are acceptable and which should not be expressed?
No one. Everyone should be able to express their opinion. Everyone should also be able to accept or reject that opinion.


Quote:
What other rules would you apply for civil discourse?
It is difficult to police speech. "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
Translation: It is easier to get what you want by flattering people and being polite to them than by making demands.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 02:01 am
@Real Music,
Real Music wrote:
Quote:
- In what circumstances is attacking someone's intelligence or worth as a human being acceptable?
That shouldn't happen. If it were to happen to you, I would suggest ignoring that person and move on.


When someone keeps banging on about being a genius there's nothing wrong in pointing out that they're actually thick as ****.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 09:15 am
@layman,
Quote:

Next thing ya know, you'll be denyin the stone-cold fact that every member of the IDF tortures and eats Palestinian children. They're jews, after all, caincha see?

Oh you shouldn't be so absent minded as to degrade everyone in the IDF for what some of them do. It's too bad that some members of the IDF shot a bound and blindfolded guy in the leg at pointblank range. Makes the whole bunch of them look bad, eh? And it's too bad that some members of the IDF shot a kid in the face. But you should only condemn the cowards like the ones in the video and the one who shot a kid in the face.

At least you know better than to become a screaming whiner who calls anyone who points that **** out an anti semite, cuz that would make you look cheap and small. And you don't want to look cheap and small . . . if you can help it.

Let's see if we can help you sort this out so that you don't become smaller and cheaper. Someone in this thread made the point that "You don't become a Nazi by criticizing the State of Israel."

Another poster responded to that by saying, "I'm not sure that I agree. Part of Nazism involved falsely accusing Jews of horrible atrocities."

So I answered that poster by asking how it is that I can't criticize things like shooting a bound and blindfolded man in the leg or shooting a kid in the face without being call a Nazi.

If you don't want look smaller and cheaper, you shouldn't resort to name calling as a substitute for just answering the question of why I can't criticize cowardly behavior without you becoming a screaming whiner.

So go ahead . . .
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 02:06 pm
@maporsche,
Terrific graphic.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 04:56 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
I'm guessing Oral isn't old enough to remember what actually happened at Kent State.

True. But I am fully aware of it.

Are you aware that Kent State reinforces the points that I've been making in this thread?

It is a shame that totally innocent students (who had nothing to do with the violent mob) ended up killed and crippled.

And it is an outrage that people who were too stupid to understand that those students had not been among the violent mob wrote horribly cruel letters to the grieving parents. The world would be a much more pleasant place if stupid people were never allowed to communicate.


glitterbag wrote:
Wow, I wonder what it must be like to be so totally cocooned.....but I don't wonder very long,

If you characterize being totally cocooned as meaning being born after various historical events, you shouldn't need to wonder what that is like. Just take note of some of the events that happened before you were born.


glitterbag wrote:
sadly I deal in facts and information analysis. Now sure living in la la land would suit me.

I assume that you meant to write "not" and that you meant to imply that I don't live in reality.

I remind you of your recent failures to point out even a single fact that I've been wrong about.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 05:01 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
When someone keeps banging on about being a genius there's nothing wrong in pointing out that they're actually thick as ****.

Except that's not what you do. You go around falsely accusing smart people of being dumb. And then when they correct your false accusations, you falsely accuse them of bragging about their superior intelligence.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 05:03 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
Oh you shouldn't be so absent minded as to degrade everyone in the IDF for what some of them do.

My point exactly.


Glennn wrote:
It's too bad that some members of the IDF shot a bound and blindfolded guy in the leg at pointblank range. Makes the whole bunch of them look bad, eh?

No. They alone are responsible for their actions. It has nothing to do with the rest of the IDF.


Glennn wrote:
And it's too bad that some members of the IDF shot a kid in the face.

It isn't reasonable to characterize a round fired into a crowd as being deliberately aimed at someone's face.


Glennn wrote:
But you should only condemn the cowards like the ones in the video and the one who shot a kid in the face.

The fact that they used riot control devices to protect themselves does not make them cowards and does not make them deserving of condemnation.
centrox
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 05:06 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
glitterbag wrote:
I'm guessing Oral isn't old enough to remember what actually happened at Kent State.

There was a story going around among us hippies (in England) that rednecks were giving a four-finger salute to hippies they saw, which conveyed the message "We got four of you at Kent State, and we're gonna get the rest of you!". I have not (using Google) found much to support this, except a Google Books quotation in an art book:

Quote:
I dressed up as a flower child and my history teacher started kicking my desk and yelling at me, “We got four of you at Kent State” (meaning hippies—he was in the National Guard).


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=do84DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=%22we+got+four+of+you+at+Kent+State%22&source=bl&ots=daMFTtsGMT&sig=OAELInBcN8UImRRLY1tkxjJzsqI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjphKHr7-PYAhUpIcAKHX5eCM4Q6AEIKTAA
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 05:19 am
@centrox,
Quote:
I dressed up as a flower child and my history teacher started kicking my desk and yelling at me, “We got four of you at Kent State” (meaning hippies—he was in the National Guard).

The history teacher mentioned in that book sounds exactly like the stupid people that I was talking about.

Setting aside for a moment the question of whether it would have been all right to kill genuine hippies (I find some of their anti-war beliefs questionable but certainly wouldn't want them killed for it), some of the dead/crippled students were NOT hippies.

And it sounds like the history teacher was flipping out over a Halloween costume. Dressing like a hippie as a Halloween costume doesn't mean someone is a hippie.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 08:55 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
No. They alone are responsible for their actions. It has nothing to do with the rest of the IDF.

Right. That the others stood there and watched their buddy shoot a tied and blindfolded guy is definitely no reflection on them.
Quote:

It isn't reasonable to characterize a round fired into a crowd as being deliberately aimed at someone's face.

Crowd? What crowd? Members of the IDF were inside a stone wall under construction that surrounds the home of the girl who might get 14 years in prison for slapping a soldier an hour after one of them shot her cousin in the face. The kid climbed up onto the wall to see if the soldiers were still there. So one of the soldiers shot him in the head from only a few meters distance.

This is yet another example of you creating your own narrative out of thin air in order to put lipstick on pigs.
Quote:
The fact that they used riot control devices to protect themselves does not make them cowards and does not make them deserving of condemnation.

Yeah it does. They shot a kid in the head for showing his face. Others shot a guy who was tied up and blindfolded. It would appear that you've really lowered the bar when it comes to what constitutes cowardice.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 10:50 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
Right. That the others stood there and watched their buddy shoot a tied and blindfolded guy is definitely no reflection on them.

The entire IDF was not standing there watching it happen.


Glennn wrote:
Crowd? What crowd? Members of the IDF were inside a stone wall under construction that surrounds the home of the girl who might get 14 years in prison for slapping a soldier an hour after one of them shot her cousin in the face. The kid climbed up onto the wall to see if the soldiers were still there. So one of the soldiers shot him in the head from only a few meters distance.

This is yet another example of you creating your own narrative out of thin air in order to put lipstick on pigs.

You're the one who previously described this as Israeli soldiers firing on protesters. Don't blame me if you described it inaccurately.

As for your new description of the events, suddenly appearing near soldiers like that is a bad idea. They probably feared that he was a suicide bomber come to kill them. The kid is lucky they didn't fire with lethal ammunition. They probably only used the rubber bullet because they were panicking and grabbed the closest weapon they had.


Glennn wrote:
Yeah it does.

Protecting yourself from a perceived threat does not make you a coward. Nor does it make you deserving of condemnation.


Glennn wrote:
They shot a kid in the head for showing his face.

From your new description, they probably thought the kid was a suicide bomber come to kill them.


Glennn wrote:
Others shot a guy who was tied up and blindfolded.

A completely unrelated incident.


Glennn wrote:
It would appear that you've really lowered the bar when it comes to what constitutes cowardice.

No. I just refuse to wrongly accuse people of cowardice.
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Jan, 2018 01:01 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The entire IDF was not standing there watching it happen.

Nope, just an officer and those under him. I get the feeling that you believe that that act of cowardice wouldn't have happened if the whole IDF had been there. I could show you a video of seven or eight members of the IDF beating up on one guy, but I have no doubt that you would defend such brutality by claiming that they all felt threatened by the guy they were beating.
Quote:
You're the one who previously described this as Israeli soldiers firing on protesters. Don't blame me if you described it inaccurately.

You should have let this sleeping dog lie. Here's the story of what happened:

Friday, December 15, was another unquiet day in Nabi Saleh. It was a week after U.S. President Trump’s declaration about Jerusalem. As on every Friday, a protest march was set to take place. Tamimi relates that he went that morning with a group of his peers to see whether there were soldiers lurking in ambush, ahead of the march, which always makes its way toward the IDF’s fortified watchtower at the village’s entrance. There were five or six youths. A short time later, they saw about a dozen soldiers who’d come from the south and were trying to take cover in an ambush position. Mohammed and a friend shouted to them: We see you! The soldiers hurled tear-gas grenades at them. In the meantime, the marchers were drawing closer.

The military force positioned itself in the “villa,” a splendid but not yet finished wall-enclosed stone structure at the edge of Nabi Saleh, built by an affluent Palestinian exile who lives in Spain. It’s meant to be an alternative-health clinic, but its opening has been delayed because of the situation. Dozens of villagers surrounded the “villa,” knowing there were soldiers within.

Mohammed Tamimi approached the wall of the building, then climbed it. He wanted to see whether there were still soldiers inside, in the wake of a rumor that they had left. But the instant he appeared above the wall, he was shot in the head with a rubber-coated metal bullet from a distance of a few meters. Tamimi managed to see the soldier aim his rifle at him, he recalls, but that’s all he remembers. He fell to the ground and the other youngsters rushed over to him.
_________________________________________________

So he was just checking to see if there were still soldiers inside the villa, and so one of them shot him in the head.
Quote:
Protecting yourself from a perceived threat does not make you a coward.

Correct. But shooting a bound and blindfolded man in the leg does.
Quote:
From your new description, they probably thought the kid was a suicide bomber come to kill them.

But he was just checking to see if the soldiers were still in the villa.
Quote:
A completely unrelated incident.

It would be if it wasn't committed by the same organization.
 

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