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Government Shutdown this Friday (January 2018)

 
 
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:00 pm
I am surprised that there is no thread on this. We are on the brink of a government shutdown. I suspect it is going to happen on Friday.

The politics are interesting.

The expiration of DACA puts thousands of kids at risk of deportation, this is damage that can't be undone. I hope that the Democrats stand firm on this... if not than they are giving up on a core principle.

This is likely a turning point in the interaction between Trump and the Democrats. They haven't really stood up to him yet. There is always a risk when you go toe to toe in the battle for public support. I suspect that the Democrats have an advantage here.

The risk of course is the midterm elections. There is pressure for the Democrats to not make a stand in order to not risk the momentum that they see growing.

So what do you think? Should the Democrats push this? Will there be a shutdown? Where will public support go?
 
View best answer, chosen by maxdancona
roger
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:31 pm
@maxdancona,
Does this mean that congressional people won't get paid? Maybe they just need some motivation.

Are you encouraging the shutdown, by the way? I honestly have no idea what kind of problems might be the result.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:36 pm
@roger,
DACA is personal for me. Someone I care very much about came here as a child and is now contemplating being deported to a country he doesn't know. So yes, I want my representatives to do whatever it takes to protect the Dreamers.

As a matter of politics, I also support the shutdown (assuming that the other side continues to play hardball). The purpose of the shutdown is to give the minority party leverage. That is how it works. The benefit is leverage, the cost is the risk of a public backlash. In poker, when you have a good hand you bet for value (meaning that you raise with an expectation that it will turn out well for you). In this case, with Trump unpopularity and his recent gaffes, it is time for the Democrats to raise the stakes.

I have a personal reason to believe that this is a moral stand. I also believe that this is a politically smart move in this case. Yes, there is risk of a public backlash, but the Democrats probably have the upper hand and it is worth the risk. If people we care about are deported, I am not the only American voter that the Democrats will have alienated.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:40 pm
I will definitely not argue that the Democrats have let us down. I'm also disappointed in a number of Republicans. They haven't performed as I had hoped.

I do kind of wonder about the down side if it lasts very long.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:53 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
So what do you think? Should the Democrats push this?

No.

Trump will go along with DACA so long as there is also funding for his wall. There is no reason for the Democrats to oppose funding for the wall. They are only opposing it out of childishness.

Instead of picking an unnecessary fight out of childishness, the Democrats should agree to let Trump have his wall as part of the DACA bill.


maxdancona wrote:
Will there be a shutdown?

Probably. The Democrats want to be childish and spiteful far more than they want DACA to pass.


maxdancona wrote:
Where will public support go?

Who knows.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:57 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
As a matter of politics, I also support the shutdown (assuming that the other side continues to play hardball).

Trump isn't playing hardball. He merely wants funding for his wall as part of the package.

The wall is harmless. There is no reason for the Democrats to oppose it other than their desire to be spiteful to Trump.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:05 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
There is no reason for the Democrats to oppose funding for the wall.


Of course there is. The wall is expensive and unpopular with the American people. Even Rasmussen (a decidedly conservative polling firm) says that most Americans don't want the wall.

Most of us see the wall as a huge waste of money.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:09 pm
@maxdancona,
Other than costing money, what harm would the wall cause?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:13 pm
@oralloy,
The government will have to use eminent domain to take land away from Americans. And we will further anger an important trading partner.

Other than that... and don't forget we are talking about billions of dollars of taxpayer money... not much harm.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:19 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Even Rasmussen (a decidedly conservative polling firm) says that most Americans don't want the wall.


Now, isn't that pitiful? The polls will reflect the slant of the polling company.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:23 pm
@maxdancona,
Since there is no real reason for the Democrats to oppose the wall, it will be a shame if we miss a chance to pass DACA simply because the Democrats want to prevent Trump from getting something that he wants.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:31 pm
@oralloy,
I think the wall is a distraction.

What is really happening is that Trump is being played by immigration hardliners who are saying "hell no" to anything they see as amnesty. When Trump started moving toward a compromise. even telling Senators that he would get behind the deal they reached, the anti-amnesty hardliners squawked. Then Trump fell into line.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:42 pm
@maxdancona,
It is reasonable for Trump to want something for him included as part of a compromise deal. And the Democrats are insisting that the wall not be part of the package despite there not being any real reason to oppose it.

If it is a distraction, the Democrats are handing it to Trump on a silver platter.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 07:30 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
There is no reason for the Democrats to oppose funding for the wall. They are only opposing it out of childishness.
Instead of picking an unnecessary fight out of childishness, the Democrats should agree to let Trump have his wall as part of the DACA bill.


Republican Rand Paul: 'We don't have money to spend' for Trump's border wall.
Quote:
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said Wednesday that while he supports additional barriers at the U.S.-Mexico border, he believes some of the estimated costs for President Trump’s border wall are too high to justify.

"I remain a fiscal conservative, even on the wall, so I’m not excited about spending $20, $30, $40 billion on a wall. I’m still a believer that we don’t have money to spend. We’re $700 billion in the hole,” Paul said on CNN.

“And while I will vote for money for barriers, I’m not voting for $40 billion for barriers,” Paul added.

A report last week detailed Trump’s plan to ask Congress for $18 billion to fund a wall along the border. A wall was among his signature campaign promises.
The Trump administration is seeking $33 billion in total to increase southern border security, with the remaining $15 billion going to fund technology, personnel and other improvements.

Another $8.5 billion over seven years would be used to pay for 5,000 new Border Patrol agents.

Paul said Wednesday he supports having barriers in certain locations along the border, but that the price tag of those barriers should be debated. He also advocated for using technology to improve border security, which he argued is a cheaper alternative.

"The barriers, I think we need to look at the cost of them. The people advocating for it are forgetting they’re fiscally conservative and are just giving enormous numbers,” Paul added.

Lawmakers met Tuesday to discuss immigration, including border security and the future of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program.

Trump has said funding for the border wall is a requirement for his agreement on a legislative fix for DACA, which allows certain immigrants brought to the U.S. illegally as children to live and work in the country without fear of deportation.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/368354-rand-paul-we-dont-have-money-to-spend-for-trumps-border-wall
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 01:47 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Does this mean that congressional people won't get paid? Maybe they just need some motivation.

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No. Of course they're being paid. Can't say if their support staff will be. But you have a really safe bet believing that the members of Congress already have their own paychecks exempt from any budget crisis.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 02:18 pm
@maxdancona,
Coastal sea walls and other infrastructure projects dealing with climate change and rising sea levels are decidedly more important than funding Trump's vanity project.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 04:28 pm
@tsarstepan,
There is actually a Constitutional Amendment saying that Congress members must get paid. They can't even change that without another change to the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 04:40 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Coastal sea walls and other infrastructure projects dealing with climate change and rising sea levels are decidedly more important than funding Trump's vanity project.

The thing about compromising is, in exchange for you getting something that you want, they get something that they want.

It doesn't matter whether you think it is a big priority. It's something they want, and if you want to compromise with someone, you have to offer them something that they want.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 04:44 pm
@oralloy,
I don't know if reality matters to you at all Oralloy... but the Democrats (along with the Republicans on the team) came up with exactly that deal. They offered Trump money for his wall in exchange for DACA.

Trump nixed the deal that he had already promised to sign when his right wing masters told him to.

Trump is not running the show here.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 05:48 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I don't know if reality matters to you at all Oralloy...

You should know by now that it means everything to me.


maxdancona wrote:
but the Democrats (along with the Republicans on the team) came up with exactly that deal. They offered Trump money for his wall in exchange for DACA.

The reporting that I'm hearing on the issue gives the impression that the Democrats are demanding a clean DACA bill with no funding for the wall.
0 Replies
 
 

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