Government Shutdown this Friday (January 2018)

@maporsche,

Considering my level of "support" in this forum is pretty much non-existent it's an easy play to take gratuitous shots at me.

Disappointed in you.

You specifically asked the question "Am I wrong?"

I answered it and you didn't like my answer so you have been going on and on about it over numerous posts, as if the only reasonable answer was "No maporche, of course, you're not wrong."

You're being a crybaby. Get over it.

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@maxdancona,

How preciously pedantic of you max.

Are you really suggesting that this whole thing has been an uber-clever ploy by Schummer?

They had DACA before all of this nonsense.

They energized their base when they shut the government down, but now that base is lambasting Schummer to no end.

Giving up on a gambit makes the party look weak not moderate.

This whole discussion has been incredible.

I'm assuming you are not a member of Schummer's inner circle. Why do you care so much about giving him cover?

I don't know if anyone in this forum is keeping score on these things but I sure am not. The Dems tactic blew up. GOP tactics have and will blow up.
What is the purpose of not admitting the truth?

1 Reply

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

I'm not sure what all the angst is about the recent deal. I heard the details, thought it was a decent step, heard the talking heads debating it and still think it was a decent step. We got CHIP out of the way, got the government open, and put a hard deadline on the Senate to open a floor debate on DACA. The Republicans hardliners in the House are unhappy with discussing DACA, the Democratic hardliners in the Senate are unhappy with waiting three weeks to see if DACA can move forward. If the Senate doesn't bring up DACA by the the agreed to date, the Democrats and say "we tried to be reasonable, promises were made, they leave us no choice." What is the heartburn?

It depends.

If someone is an extremist nutcase who insists not only that the Democrats must get everything they want, but also that the Republicans must get nothing they want (even if there is no harm in the Republican goals), then that person is likely to be pretty unhappy.

If someone is a reasonable moderate who is fine with compromising and letting the other side have some of what they want (especially when what they want is pretty harmless) if the end result is the passage of desirable legislation, then that person is likely to be pretty happy.

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Truly rich is the number of comments in this forum suggesting that the shut down was the fault of the GOP that controls both houses of Congress.

Apparently, they never heard of a filibuster and the requirement of 60 votes for cloture.

The desperation to slap lipstick on this pig is amazing.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Are you really suggesting that this whole thing has been an uber-clever ploy by Schummer?

No. Where did I do this? This is a complex, constantly moving, gameboard. Each side recalculates after they see how the opposition reacts.

I am saying that I think the Democrats came out with a reasonably strong position after the government reopened. I don't think I said anything more than that.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Truly rich is the number of comments in this forum suggesting that the shut down was the fault of the GOP that controls both houses of Congress.

Apparently, they never heard of a filibuster and the requirement of 60 votes for cloture.

Let me try to lay this out as clearly as I can formulate my thoughts.

a) The republicans control the legislative agenda
b) Democrats cannot bring bills to debate or to a vote

I hope we can agree so far.

c) Republicans set up a timeline to end DACA
d) Republicans stopped funding CHIP
e) Republicans did not submit a budget in early 2017
f) Republicans have been insisting on funding a government via Continuing Resolutions for years and years

Are we still in agreement?

g) Republicans know about the 60 vote threshold on CR bills
h) Republicans knew that the democrats wanted a resolution on CHIP and DACA in return for their vote for this CR.
i) They knew about h) for weeks/months before this vote in December
j) For weeks/months they never brought up a bill to the floor for CHIP
k) For weeks/months they never brought up a bill to the floor for DACA

So far I think we're still in agreement...or at least I can't think of what fact I've stated above is incorrect.

Conclusion -- If all these things are true, and the republicans could have seen this coming for weeks/months (i) but choose not to put anything in the bill to garner support from Democrat legislators before this vote or with this vote (j, k), despite knowing that this would be required and that they'd need minority party votes to pass a CR (g).....well, the conclusion that I draw from this is that the Republicans control the congress, they set the agenda for bills, they know the rules of the Senate, they knew only had 45 votes for the bill (not nearly 60), they knew how to get the remaining republican votes and democratic votes, and they still allowed a shutdown to happen on their watch.

What is your conclusion, given the facts as I've laid out?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Are you really suggesting that this whole thing has been an uber-clever ploy by Schummer?

No. Where did I do this? This is a complex, constantly moving, gameboard. Each side recalculates after they see how the opposition reacts.

I am saying that I think the Democrats came out with a reasonably strong position after the government reopened. I don't think I said anything more than that.

No Max...every move in a chess match is predetermined before the first pawn is played.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

Quote:

No Max...every move in a chess match is predetermined before the first pawn is played.

Let's try that out.... My first move as white is e4. Tell me your 12th move.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Let's try that out.... My first move as white is e4. Tell me your 12th move.

Bishop to King 7. Checkmate.

(Just kidding. I couldn't resist.)

1 Reply

@maporsche,

My conclusion is that the Republicans outmaneuvered the Democrats.

This the game that both parties play. You seem to want to believe that Dems are all about Good Faith while the GOP is all about Bad Faith

Ultimately (whether or not they were forced to) the Dems shut down the government.

If you look at it as a game of chess, if one player is forced to resign is it the fault of his opponent?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

The news today seems to suggest that Finn is right, the Democrats are caving. We will see what happens.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

My conclusion is that the Republicans outmaneuvered the Democrats.

That's my conclusion too, actually, when viewed as a whole.

It's not hard to do though when wielding the majority party powers. Kinda like a Porsche outmaneuvering a mini-van.

Quote:

This the game that both parties play. You seem to want to believe that Dems are all about Good Faith while the GOP is all about Bad Faith

I agree that both parties do this. It's politics. You keep trying to assign some morality to comments on the different parties. The morality is with each individual voter based on what their moral codes tell them to act. The different parties are just the tools used to achieve those goals.

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Is the United States of America vulnerable to its enemies during a shutdown? When are its shutdown this 2018?

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

The thing about compromising is, in exchange for you getting something that you want, they get something that they want.

It doesn't matter whether you think it is a big priority. It's something they want, and if you want to compromise with someone, you have to offer them something that they want.

Trump said he wanted a DACA bill. I think his words very recently were that he wanted "a bill of love."

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Oooh, selected answer. Very Happy

I take it you recognized the significance of the move?

For those who didn't recognize it, in the movie Blade Runner that was the move used by Roy Batty to win the chess game between J. F. Sebastian and Dr. Tyrell and thereby gain entrance to Dr. Tyrell's quarters.

And the creators of Blade Runner copied it from a legendary chess game from 1851:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_Game

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@old europe,

I read the Conservative blogosphere. The Right wingers are not happy with Trump's "amnesty" plan. Breitbart is calling him "Amnesty Don".

This will be interesting.

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@maporsche,

You keep trying to assign some morality to comments on the different parties.

Not in the least.

I have maintained throughout a number of different threads that there is no appreciable difference between the two parties when it comes to corruption and lust for power.

0 Replies

Government Shutdown this Friday (January 2018)

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